all this topping from the bottom talk has got me thinking

that if i held myself to the drawn lines many here have, i would not be concidered a submissive at all.

back when there was no name or written rules for this lifestyle, a sub was a sub and a dom was a dom, nobody had to live up to anybody else's standard. i just find myself seeing all this "if i say or ask am i topping from the bottom?" " does that make me a bad sub?" " i want this or that so i must be less of a sub than so and so." it's crazy people you are what you are within YOUR relationship. nobody else's pays your bills or wipes your ass so why does how they live their life make you any more or less of anything?

here's alittle something that would make me seem as if i am topping from the bottom at all times (but in MY world it makes me nothing more than who and what i am)

when there is a new or differant forms of play that I, He or We want to try or find interesting, i research it as much as possible, than when i am ready i learn how to do it, i practice everything on myself for days, weeks or even months before i feel i am good enough or know enough to teach He how to do the play. he using what i teach him when and how he wants to. does this mean i am topping from the bottom because i am just as (if not more) proficient than my Dom at forms of play? no not in my mind and not to He. i have learned and taught him forms of play that i have no interest in what so ever, but he wanted to use the play with one of his slaves, so i did what i do best, i made Him happy.

this is rambling and pointless but it has just been eating at me for awhile now

lilredwolph said:

that if i held myself to the drawn lines many here have, i would not be concidered a submissive at all.

back when there was no name or written rules for this lifestyle, a sub was a sub and a dom was a dom, nobody had to live up to anybody else's standard. i just find myself seeing all this "if i say or ask am i topping from the bottom?" " does that make me a bad sub?" " i want this or that so i must be less of a sub than so and so." it's crazy people you are what you are within YOUR relationship. nobody else's pays your bills or wipes your ass so why does how they live their life make you any more or less of anything?

here's alittle something that would make me seem as if i am topping from the bottom at all times (but in MY world it makes me nothing more than who and what i am)

when there is a new or differant forms of play that I, He or We want to try or find interesting, i research it as much as possible, than when i am ready i learn how to do it, i practice everything on myself for days, weeks or even months before i feel i am good enough or know enough to teach He how to do the play. he using what i teach him when and how he wants to. does this mean i am topping from the bottom because i am just as (if not more) proficient than my Dom at forms of play? no not in my mind and not to He. i have learned and taught him forms of play that i have no interest in what so ever, but he wanted to use the play with one of his slaves, so i did what i do best, i made Him happy.

this is rambling and pointless but it has just been eating at me for awhile now

Click to expand...

It is all labelling isn't it? the only people who matter are the dominant and submissive in the relationship. I know I do not care if someone thinks I am "real" or "true." I am real enough and true enough to my subs, they are the same to Me, and that is all that matters.

Very short and likely to be more elaborated later

as I just can't keep my mouth shut but have basically notime at all just a tiny thought...

with most things in BDSM, it is in the eye of the beholder so to speak.

I would say it is fine suggesting - perfecting skills and all that.
That is not topping from the bottom, just offering options ... but once you start demanding - being sulky for not getting it "your way" - THEN, imo you are topping from the bottom.

As long as the Dominant has the final say in if and when things are happening then it is fine as far as I am concerned.

A very tired and exhausted Hecate, thus not making much sense I am afraid

Re: Very short and likely to be more elaborated later

Hecate said:

I would say it is fine suggesting - perfecting skills and all that.
That is not topping from the bottom, just offering options ... but once you start demanding - being sulky for not getting it "your way" - THEN, imo you are topping from the bottom.

As long as the Dominant has the final say in if and when things are happening then it is fine as far as I am concerned.

Click to expand...

Piggybacking... Yes it is the expectation that a sub should get his/her way, and the bad behaviour that comes with that expectation if the sub is not indulged is the irritating part.

my point is why do so many ("newer than me") subs feel that even bringing up a subject (forget asking for it) is out of line or topping from the bottom? it just doesn't make sense to me. if i am going to let somebody put a dagger inside my pussy or light fires on my chest, i am going to make damn sure that person knows what they're doing by more ways than just watching them do it to somebody else, i want to know all there is to know because i am the one that will end up in ER if something goes wrong.

lilredwolph said:

my point is why do so many ("newer than me") subs feel that even bringing up a subject (forget asking for it) is out of line or topping from the bottom?

Click to expand...

Exactly, but when are they asking? They wait until they are naked and they are looking at the knife blade before they utter a concern.

I think that the time to find out exactly what is going on is well before you are naked and bound with your ass in the air.

Negotiations, questions, and discussions are most important. If a Dom/me tries to tell you that it is out of line for you to negotiate how you will be treated, then move on.

Ebonyfire said:

Exactly, but when are they asking? They wait until they are naked and they are looking at the knife blade before they utter a concern.

I think that the time to find out exactly what is going on is well before you are naked and bound with your ass in the air.

Negotiations, questions, and discussions are most important. If a Dom/me tries to tell you that it is out of line for you to negotiate how you will be treated, then move on.

Click to expand...

Exactly EB!!!! It's all about when and how the subject is brought up.

To be honest, more often than not, I see subs here expecting their needs to be met all the time.

A sub should derive pleasure from pleasing his/her Dom/me. A Dom/me derives pleasure from commanding/controlling their sub. In my mind, this is the difference between BDSM and kinky sex.

I am a huge proponent of communication in any relationship, let alone a BDSM relationship. I think that a sub has every right to communicate and discuss their needs with their Dom/me. Once the negotiation is over, it is their role to submit and obey. If they aren't getting what they need then they should discuss it and move on. IMO, topping from the bottom is when the needs of the sub come before the desires of the Dom/me.

Now every BDSM relationship is different, and the most important thing is to make it work for you, in the context of your relationship, but I often see the subs who "top from the bottom" eventually complain that their Dom/me does not take charge enough. If you top from the bottom, you erode the foundation of a BDSM relationship and weaken the Dom/me's ability to command your respect.

JMHO

<zip snip>, topping from the bottom is when the needs of the sub come before the desires of the Dom/me. <zip snip>

i would reword this statement some-
, topping from the bottom is when the the sub pushes for their needs to come before the desires of the Dom/me and keeps pushing until their desires are met


i really think this need to be #1 has lead to alot of the Dom-hopping one sees, subs move from Dom to Dom with hopes of the next S/He "will understand my needs before i even know i have needs"

mind you this is only MY take on things it is not meant to enrage the masses, it is mine and only mine

I've tried to reply to this thread like 5 times now. Lets see if this one makes it to the board.

Firstly, there are so many things running through my head that I can't really put them all down here or the post will be pages and pages.

Once the negotiation is over, it is their role to submit and obey. If they aren't getting what they need then they should discuss it and move on.

Click to expand...

This implies, no, straight states that after "negotiation is over" there should be no further communication between the dom and the sub.

Am I the only one that finds this crazy? Maybe you are talking about meeting someone in some club someplace where you'll never see that person again. I am talking about myself, who lives with her dom, loves him as a person, a boyfriend, and hopefully a husband (soon).

After you say that negotiation is over in one sentance then in the next you say:

If they aren't getting what they need then they should discuss it and move on.

Click to expand...

So that confuses me since you're contradicting yourself.

Moving on, shouldn't that be a last resort? Shouldn't anyone in any kind of relationship do everything possible to save a relationship that is good in every way except one?

Ebonyfire said:

It is all labelling isn't it? the only people who matter are the dominant and submissive in the relationship. I know I do not care if someone thinks I am "real" or "true." I am real enough and true enough to my subs, they are the same to Me, and that is all that matters.

Click to expand...

It is all labeling. But if people like myself are going to post here, people who have been around a while can't go around calling them fakes (or implying it).

All too often when I (and i'm sure many others) have come around to places like this, or back when there were worthwhile newsgroups, whatever they said was wrong. I was wrong for what I was looking for, someone else was wrong in what they were doing. I think if you've been around a while you can recall at least a few examples of what i'm describing.

lilredwolph said:

my point is why do so many ("newer than me") subs feel that even bringing up a subject (forget asking for it) is out of line or topping from the bottom?

Click to expand...

Again, this stems from so many vocal people (who is usually most vocal? <hint, doms>) saying things like,

zipman7 said:

Once the negotiation is over, it is their role to submit and obey.

Click to expand...

slvjenn said:

This implies, no, straight states that after "negotiation is over" there should be no further communication between the dom and the sub.

Am I the only one that finds this crazy? Maybe you are talking about meeting someone in some club someplace where you'll never see that person again. I am talking about myself, who lives with her dom, loves him as a person, a boyfriend, and hopefully a husband (soon).

Click to expand...

constant communication is needed for the relationship to grow and progress

It is all labeling. But if people like myself are going to post here, people who have been around a while can't go around calling them fakes (or implying it).

Click to expand...

has somebody here done this to you? (personally i hate labeling anything more than my undies)

All too often when I (and i'm sure many others) have come around to places like this, or back when there were worthwhile newsgroups, whatever they said was wrong. I was wrong for what I was looking for, someone else was wrong in what they were doing. I think if you've been around a while you can recall at least a few examples of what i'm describing.

Click to expand...

people telling you, you are wrong, is nothing but internet BS, it is somebody else's need to feel superior and in my eye that is wrong. www.iamaDom/me so bow to me, is nothing but crap, so don't buy into that. i have never understood the inner workings of online D/s and i have no urge to either



i am a sub have been for a great number of years, and i have never been made to feel by any Dom/me or sub that i am less than them because i don't do what they do the way they do it. i only encounter such things online and i think it's crap

In the experiences that I have had, if a sub is accused of topping from the bottom because she has asked for something or stated a preference for somethin, it is normally from a Dom who is either 1. inexperienced and believe his word is final in all matters, or 2. insecure in what their true position is.

I am never one to sit back a "wait" and "hope". I speak out, ask, state, explain. I've had some Doms say they would consider it, others say they would like like, and others who stated they would never do it. That's negotiation. If a Dom says "absolutely no" or accuses me of "topping from the bottom" then we never get to the "play" part. He's off the list.

And slvjenn, Zip is not as dictariol as that one statement would appear. He has negoiated with his sub what her desires and preferences are, and understands why she wants or desire them. When it occurs, if at all, is up to him to decide. It's what makes a Dom, a Dom. If a sub has stated her preference or desire, and her Dom has listened and they have both reached an agreement, then it is her time to sit back quietly and wait. Besides, I have hard time thinking that Zip would outright deny his sub anything, in its proper course, unless it were harmful to her.

lilredwolph said:

my point is why do so many ("newer than me") subs feel that even bringing up a subject (forget asking for it) is out of line or topping from the bottom?

Click to expand...

It is my belief that many who are new to the lifestyle are only now learning to communicate their needs. There are so many nuances to the D/s relationship that it is a reasonable question to ask "HOW do I bring this up?"

So, learning to communicate your needs to someone you care about can be an uncomfortable situation.

Also, those new to the lifestyle may not understand the "topping from the bottom" cue words without having some meaningful discussion about it.

I have to agree, topping from the bottom happens when a sub uses manipulation, force or other subversive means to control their Dom. Open and honest communication is never "topping". It is just open and honest communication, one of the foundations of any D/s relationship.

I will only add that we all define our D/s relationships based on us, our circumstances, our knowledge and needs. How zip defines something, isn't necessarily how anyone of us will. The important thing is to find what you love about it, take it, savor it and enjoy.

What works for one, may not work for another.

A good discussion to have...thanks, all.

Just my two cents......

First, bear in mind, these are my views on the subject.

The question is when should communication occur. First off, it should occur BEFORE doing anything, I think limits and preferences should be thoroughly discussed. There should also be continued communication throughout a relationship. I have regular communication with my sub, but it happens when I decide to do it, unless there is a problem. My sub is free to discuss things that she might like to try. I may choose to do them or I may choose not to. I will never do them right then. To me, that is blurring the lines of control.

However, once the limits and preferences have been discussed, the sub should submit to the desires of the Dom/me. This does not mean that things can't be renegotiated. It does mean that the relationship is decided by the Dom/me. The essence of a BDSM relationship is control. If the sub dictates or continually is suggesting things to do, then the Dom/me is not in control of the relationship.

The relationship that I describe is not a one-night stand but a BDSM relationship. I am in a Long term relationship with my girlfriend who is also my sub. Our BDSM relationship is sexual only. She looks to me, as her Dom to provide her with direction. If she is telling me what she wants each time we get together, and I allow this, then it is not a BDSM relationship to me because there has been no "power exchange."

Moving on should be a last resort, but I do think that subs have needs too. That is why I state that a sub may desire to move on if she is not getting what she needs. This does not mean that they shouldn't try and discuss it, (at an appropriate time), but that if her needs have changed, that she does have the right to move on and find a Dom that she is more compatible with.

No one is telling you that you are wrong. Too be honest, I have always been amazed at the openness of discussion between subs and Dom/mes here. I think that the subs are quite vocal about their needs. Again, no one is telling you how to live your life or how you should define your relationship with your SO. To some Dom/mes, the fact that I don't live the lifestyle 24/7 means that I am not a real Dom to them. Personally, I couldn't care less what they think.

Personally, I am quite tired of some of the people who post here (hint, hint - some subs) who blame others for "telling them what to do."

The dynamic of "topping from the bottom" can be very detrimental to a BDSM relationship, especially in the long run. Once you establish a dynamic of telling your Dom/me what to do, they begin to rely on it. Later, when you crave greater control, you may well find that you what you have is a Dom/me waiting for your next "suggestion." By then, it is often too difficult to change this dynamic.

Good luck with however you choose to enjoy this lifestyle.

slvjenn said:

I've tried to reply to this thread like 5 times now. Lets see if this one makes it to the board.

Firstly, there are so many things running through my head that I can't really put them all down here or the post will be pages and pages.



This implies, no, straight states that after "negotiation is over" there should be no further communication between the dom and the sub.

Am I the only one that finds this crazy? Maybe you are talking about meeting someone in some club someplace where you'll never see that person again. I am talking about myself, who lives with her dom, loves him as a person, a boyfriend, and hopefully a husband (soon).

After you say that negotiation is over in one sentance then in the next you say:



So that confuses me since you're contradicting yourself.

Moving on, shouldn't that be a last resort? Shouldn't anyone in any kind of relationship do everything possible to save a relationship that is good in every way except one?



It is all labeling. But if people like myself are going to post here, people who have been around a while can't go around calling them fakes (or implying it).

All too often when I (and i'm sure many others) have come around to places like this, or back when there were worthwhile newsgroups, whatever they said was wrong. I was wrong for what I was looking for, someone else was wrong in what they were doing. I think if you've been around a while you can recall at least a few examples of what i'm describing.



Again, this stems from so many vocal people (who is usually most vocal? <hint, doms>) saying things like,

Click to expand...

jenn, part of it may be the advice you are focusing on. If someone is telling you their theories on D/s relationships that don't apply to you, then they don't apply. I was hearing that you don't want to communicate directly, but that you want your needs met. That's kind of a pickle you put yourself in, and it might be easier to argue with people who suggest things you would never do then to focus on the problem you have brought to the forum. There were lots of other suggestions that seemed helpful within the framework of the relationship you presented - hope you didn't miss them and will actually give them a shot.

slvjenn said:

It is all labeling. But if people like myself are going to post here, people who have been around a while can't go around calling them fakes (or implying it).

Click to expand...

I read the same post and I did not get the feeling anyone called you a fake, yet you took it as such.


I read it that the person was giving his opinion on the topic.

It is not what you are called (or think you are called) but what you answer to.

Eb

SexyChele said:

In the experiences that I have had, if a sub is accused of topping from the bottom because she has asked for something or stated a preference for somethin, it is normally from a Dom who is either 1. inexperienced and believe his word is final in all matters, or 2. insecure in what their true position is.

I am never one to sit back a "wait" and "hope". I speak out, ask, state, explain. I've had some Doms say they would consider it, others say they would like like, and others who stated they would never do it. That's negotiation. If a Dom says "absolutely no" or accuses me of "topping from the bottom" then we never get to the "play" part. He's off the list.

And slvjenn, Zip is not as dictariol as that one statement would appear. He has negoiated with his sub what her desires and preferences are, and understands why she wants or desire them. When it occurs, if at all, is up to him to decide. It's what makes a Dom, a Dom. If a sub has stated her preference or desire, and her Dom has listened and they have both reached an agreement, then it is her time to sit back quietly and wait. Besides, I have hard time thinking that Zip would outright deny his sub anything, in its proper course, unless it were harmful to her.

Click to expand...

Hey Chele,

To your first point the other reason a sub may be considered to be topping from the bottom is because she is. Dom/mes didn''t make up the term just to have something to say to subs. The sub may be pushing the Dom to do something, which would be a legitimate reason for saying she is topping from the bottom.

Thanks for trying to explain my position on things to slvjenn. I probably wouldn't deny my sub anything, unless it was something that either I had absolutely no desire to do (i.e., scat) or was harmful. I will make her wait if she is not ready for something, or simply because I want her to wait for it. Sometimes, knowing when to introduce a new activity is the biggest challenge.

In exchange for that, my sub gets my full attention, well-thought out scenes, preparation, toys and accesories, and a caring and experienced Dom.

And lastly, I did not feel that there was anything in lilredwolph's initial post that I thought was topping from the bottom, as long as she doesn't tell her Dom when to do it. Introducing new activities, if it is done in the right way is perfectly acceptable in my mind.

zipman7 said:

as long as she doesn't tell her Dom when to do it. Introducing new activities, if it is done in the right way is perfectly acceptable in my mind.

Click to expand...

oops there it is

exactly, i don't not say do this do that during a scene, but when i am showing him how to do something i am the teacher he is the student, and i will stop him and tell him "no your doing that all wrong" or "do it this way bozo", what he chooses to do with what i have taught him i have no control over nor do i care to (unless something during scene goes very very very wrong at which point i will voice up).

i'm not sure but maybe my outlook is abit differant because i am Alpha, and i know (even though i have no contact with them) that His beta's & slaves have basically no input.

Topping from the bottom.

There are as many styles of interaction as there are folk out there playing on teh d/s stage. To apply labels to any given behaviour decries the right of players to play how they like. There is no director or audience that pays (most of the time).

For us we have discussed certain things and one of us has said "I don't understand that and cannot do it unless you teach me. Do it to me first"

Time to switch roles (because we can) to play out what it is we want. This can be very productive and hot and ..... Is it topping from the bottom NO it is just plain sense and FUN


I hate labels!!!!

My partner wrote a thesis on the effects of labelling. Hundreds of pages reduced to a few words here but basically it worked like this

A tape was made of children doing tasks. When the tape was played to an audience the presenter used two labelling strategies. One indicating "normal" outcomes and on indicating "subnormal" outcomes. The audience was then surveyed to determine attitudes to the people in the tape.

The propostion being tested was that labelling produces (negative) outcomes with peers and onlookers.

The proposition was supported by the staistical analyisis. As I said earlier a great deal of work reduced to a few lines but the message is clear in the work.

Use of labels will produce changes in perception by onlookers. The labels do not have to be applied pejoratively to have the effect.

off my soap box now

H

Re: Topping from the bottom.

pierced_boy said:

There are as many styles of interaction as there are folk out there playing on teh d/s stage. To apply labels to any given behaviour decries the right of players to play how they like. There is no director or audience that pays (most of the time).

For us we have discussed certain things and one of us has said "I don't understand that and cannot do it unless you teach me. Do it to me first"

Time to switch roles (because we can) to play out what it is we want. This can be very productive and hot and ..... Is it topping from the bottom NO it is just plain sense and FUN


I hate labels!!!!

My partner wrote a thesis on the effects of labelling. Hundreds of pages reduced to a few words here but basically it worked like this

A tape was made of children doing tasks. When the tape was played to an audience the presenter used two labelling strategies. One indicating "normal" outcomes and on indicating "subnormal" outcomes. The audience was then surveyed to determine attitudes to the people in the tape.

The propostion being tested was that labelling produces (negative) outcomes with peers and onlookers.

The proposition was supported by the staistical analyisis. As I said earlier a great deal of work reduced to a few lines but the message is clear in the work.

Use of labels will produce changes in perception by onlookers. The labels do not have to be applied pejoratively to have the effect.

off my soap box now

H

Click to expand...

I disagree. I think labels can be very useful in helping to define who and what we are. The problem with labels is that people forget that they are not absolutes. If I say that I am a Democrat, people may have an understanding of what my political views probablyare. Does that mean that anyone knows how I will feel about any one particular issue. No it doesn't. It's the assumptions that we make based on labels that are the problem.

In certain settings, labels may have more of a negative impact, but I would suggest that they are not in the world of BDSM. Imagine trying to put up a personal ad to find a sub without labels. Calling myself a SWM (single white male) is much easier than saying I am an unmarried, caucasion, human with a penis.

Sometimes, labels can help us to understand who we are, as long as we do not allow them to limit ourselves. They can be useful as long as too much importance isn't placed on them.

Off my soapbox now!

My subs show me new things all the time. Do I consider it topping from the bottom? No. Why? Because I know them well enough to know the areas where they know more than I do. I believe in allowing a sub to do what he knows best for the betterment of us both.

He knows that all he has to do is ask me if it is alright if he does so and so. He also knows that if it appeals to me at that particular time, I will pobably say yes, if not I may say no.

He knows that I will not forget about it, and one day, I will allow him to do it. That excites him. And he is happy that he was able to offer me something unselfishly.

I see what you mean Zip

But even in your example there are problems. A democrate as defined in the OED is ...i wont bother but you see what I mean.

Ecerytime we use a label we invite interpretation and create perceptions.

If we use your example of a male anybody can go to dictionary and see what a male is and like wise if we describe somebody as submissive or dominant. You need a speacialist dictionary to find Dom/me or "bottom" or "top" or "sub" in D/s context.

In context swm is fine, all the words have literal meanings.

I guess what I am trying to say is we more than a simple reduction of words. If we use labels much we run the risk of creating false or limited perceptions and views

Injudicious use of labels is very damaging.

I gues i started this line of thought from the original question about topping from the bottom "hey this could apply to me . Does this make me a bad person(sub)?" The label is clearly a misfit but it is out there creating doubt and making a person uncomfrotable with themselves when there is no need.

JMO

goodbye
H

Re: I see what you mean Zip

pierced_boy said:

I gues i started this line of thought from the original question about topping from the bottom "hey this could apply to me . Does this make me a bad person(sub)?" The label is clearly a misfit but it is out there creating doubt and making a person uncomfrotable with themselves when there is no need.

JMO

goodbye
H

Click to expand...

i wasn't really saying that these things cause me to feel selfdoubt or make me uncomfortable, what i was saying is if i held myself up to other peoples standards than i would not be what i KNOW i am. basically i refuse to hold myself up to anybody else and compare, but in the same breath asking why so many others are will to do that to themselves?

if i measured every sub i met by what i have done and how i have played, many (most) wouldn't measure up but would that make me think of them as any less submissive? NO so why do they hold themselves up to others and judge themselves? the whole idea seems crazy to me

Re: I see what you mean Zip

pierced_boy said:

The label is clearly a misfit but it is out there creating doubt and making a person uncomfrotable with themselves when there is no need.

JMO

goodbye
H

Click to expand...

I do not understand your point.

I believe that no one can create doubt in a place where it does not already reside.

Stating one's own opinion should not make someone feel doubt. We are all entitled to have a voice here. If it make someone feel uncomfortable, so be it.

Now flaming and overt attacks are something else.

Eb

Not everybody is so self assured

Many do not have the same level of self esteem that you have EB nor you lilredwolph. It is in those places that the damage can happen.

As for me well I am me, happy and secure in that.

H

PS There is no one size fits all and that is part of the point about labels

As Miss T says elsewhere "there is no right answer"

Thanks for the discussion

h

OK it's 6:30 and i've gotten no sleep at all (ran outta nyquil) so excuse any blabbering...

Labels. I think they are mostly ok when they are correct and used in a possitive light. The problem comes in because often they can be very inacturate. Labels can also be associated with stereotyping as well as prejudice. Labeling is also branding, so you dom types might wanna be careful how you throw the word around

As I read through a lot of posts around here (many from Ebonyfire) I wondered if it was actually possible for a man to submit to a woman fully. I don't mean that as a hit against her, please don't take it that way. But I was trying to imagine myself trying in any way to top my BF. I mean, if it came down to it, he'd always be able to overpower me. So I was wondering if they were always topping from the bottom.....

THEN I started thinking that maybe they are the only ones who DON'T...Since at any time they COULD overpower most women, couldn't that actually be a more pure form of submission?

I dunno...but since I didn't get any sleep i had too much time to think about that

OK, something (else) that i'm not clear on here...

did i bring this up before? maybe...yes it's in a thread just never really answered.

anyway, I see a lot of talk about the sub being ready to go further, or to try something, but little about doms, and their readiness level.

Everyone always says how you should have an experienced dom and all of that..but the fact is that they have to get that experience someplace. So some sub has to be under a dom with less than desirable experience levels.

I'm one of those subs. So that is why I came here asking what I did. I don't want to top from the bottom. But I do want my chosen dom to grow. If wanting that and encouraging that is wrong, then so be it. Maybe it is a form of TFTB.