All Comments on 'Opening Arguments'

Thoughtful and a good read. Thanks. 5*

I think this is a topic worth discussing although you did it nigh unto death. In my view the best relationship is one in which two partners are fully committed to each other. They can then rely on each other. A relationship which includes other partners is by definition one in which the two principal partners are not fully committed to each other. It is a lesser relationship. To try to argue otherwise, as so many seem to do, is to fly in the face of simple logic. Such a relationship may suit people who feel unable to commit to one person but it remains a lesser relationship.

In the case in question, why does Jesse want to keep his new relationship with Debra a secret if he does not believe it is less than the one he previously had with her? Surely he should be proud to have worked out such a satisfactory arrangement.

Points of view...Each of them have their views about marriage...About open marriage...about the importance of trust in a marriage...The cheated husband said: "Do I trust her like I did? Honestly? No..." But now he has a defense wall: The "post-nup"!!! People don't have to agree with other people's points of view...They have just to accept it, if that don't damaged other people...Her mistake when she decided to cheat will never disappear of their life...It can fade back but will always be there...Finally his point of view was right: "my relationship with my wife, and hers with me, is whatever we deem it to be. Not what society and popular culture has decided it should be...". It's their life and if they are happy with it, so be it...Interesting exchange of ideas...Two words excel: trust and respect...3*

# 1

Good one No a great one... Two buds discussing this heavy topic.. It does happen thanks 5 stars

Old Jesse has been brainwashed by classic California Bullshit. Hey Jesse...If you want to do what you are doing, why bother getting married. If you need a post nuptial because your wife cheated what does that tell you. Jesse, you need new glasses. It seems you cant read the handwriting on the shithouse wall. Those rationalizations you are spouting will work right up till the time she leaves you.

If there are not any common interest as financial, common kids or others an open marriage will go to the end soon or later. One of them will find a replecement in high %. Because the wife started the higher likely at the husband.

So, next we will find out that Jesse messed around with Janelle, and see how Sam takes it? Not a start to a story that draws me to continue. Disappointing.

An adult response to a difficult subject. Great dialogue. Anyone denigrating the morality and response of the principals is delusional, insecure...and selfish.

Well done.

I know he said she would pay for "playing" without his permission, but doesn't her willingness to go outside their agreement worry him, that this might not be the first (or last!) time?

I glad you didn't hit us with a twist at the end where it would turn out that Sam's wife was cheating!

Arrangement requires ability to have physical intimacy with no emotional intimacy. If one has this ability, it will bleed over into marital relation causing loss of intimacy there as well. Condoms also are not perfect and seeking partners that pursue recreational sex is a great way to bring home something extra. One reason the vast majority of societies throughout history have elevated committed relations is that they help save us from our own destructive tendencies.

It's all crap. A husband does own the wife just as the wife does own the husband. In the vows forsaking all others. The wife is just a whore and the husband is a pussy whipped wimp.

Some of the comments are not overly intelligent. Some people vote a 1* because they can´t envision such a life style for themselves. I can´t either, but this is just a good story about two guys discussing this. This is not a recommendation to adapt to this life style.

This is a good story!!!

Advertising for open marriage. We should all be cucks, sluts and man-whores. Yep, that's the way to go.

Jesse talks about how society has been brainwashed about their ideas about what a marriage should be, but it is him that has been brainwashed into being in a marriage that is extremely unhealthy and should never be as it is..

His statement about executing all murderers being wrong and comparing that to open marriages is also stupid..

A murder is killing someone without justification. It is always wrong. Just as his marriage is. I'm not saying open marriages are all wrong.{ I think an open marriage that starts off with both partners wanting it equally might possibly work.( If there was no jealousy and ego involved. That wouldn't be possible unless the husband and wife were each others best sexual partners and everyone else fell short of what they could do for each other or if both are bisexual and share all their partners...) But in this case it wont. Because Debra cheated first and wants it more that Jesse.}

Similarly the statement "Trust but Verify" was scoffed at by Jesse.

But he is the one constantly verifying. The existence of the post-nup. Always authorizing her possible partners. Her movements being tracked by GPS, etc...

Most married couples don't get a nuptial agreements(though it is a mistake not to with people being so morally weak) and don't constantly stalk their partners..

Everything points to Jesse being a weak man who is in a relationship that is obviously bad for him. But he stays in it regardless due to his own personal failings.

His excuses for his lifestyles are weak. And people shouldn't even be married to each other if they have a great desire to screw around.

__Wes.

It wasn't bad ... Wasn't great either

But I gave it 5 * because.....

It wasn't another bullshit Ingrams associates story ... Anything to stop you writing that rubbish.

read.. will there be a chapter 2 where the agreement blows up in Jesse's face?

Just a very weak and implausible argument in favor of cheating. She's a slut and he can't do anything about it. He figures since he can't win he should join. Both players have deep personality disorders. So, the third character shows his wonderful "character" by displaying his "tolerance" by accepting his friends lame ass excuses instead of actually helping him grow a backbone by pointing out that he needs professional help to shed the cheating slut. A stupid premise, badly argued for a destructive life. 1 star.

and interesting new angle for a story. Not for me but I can see it working for some. There's all sorts so why not? A follow up would be interesting but not sure where to could go?

I retired a very rich dr. Because of dumb asses like this .Thirty years and NOT ONE marriage lasted from this type of crap. In the end they fail and when they do it's the one who started it that throws it away.

Ok..........they have children and the child doesn't look quite like him. Maybe looks more like one of their grandparents. Does he have the child's dna tested and what does he do if he's not their father? Does he raise some other man's child? Cause he should know by now she won't use a rubber every time......some men only fuck bareback and this woman is going to stop in the heat of the moment? I doubt it.

Sorry but this reeks of bullshit.

He should cut his losses and find another woman, impose a prenuptial agreement with the new woman in regards to the partnership, have children and live life without worrying if his new wife is sport fucking another man.

Interesting concept. I kept waiting for some tie-in between Janelle's "act it out" bookclub to come into play. Like maybe his wife was out acting "50 Shades of Grey" without him knowing about it. He finds out he already has this relationship with HIS wife and does not know it.

but matt moreau content not my cup of tea.

I cannot figure how Sam will convince Janelle to keep her mouth shut. You may know

about past business relations but nothing about future ones. Therefore sooner or later some "approved" asshole is going to bring it up in public.

This is an interesting story presenting two differing points of view. One traditional view of marriage based on thousands of years of human experience, faith in God and the wisdom from that faith. The other view based in recent post modern society, atheism and moral relativity which is another phrase for: "I do what I want!" Whether or not Jesse was raised with faith, wisdom and a moral code is not mentioned here. What is clear is that he has none. His demented relationship with his wife illustrates very poor judgement and a total lack of understanding of what marriage is, what having children entails and what makes a good mother and father. Debra has proven to be a lousy wife, and those same shortcomings prove to make her a terrible mother. She is selfish to the extreme. Not life partner material.

That Jesse was hiding this condition from his partner to makes him a potential security risk as a partner in business. Sam needs to think about this going forward.

Here is where you lost me. "Brainwash". For a good deal of this story, you TRIED to be as even handed as possible, but at the end of the day, your...I don't want to say contempt...dismissiveness? of traditional marriage just slipped out.

It is like reading one of the Socratic stories. Socrates supposedly sitting around bloviating about philosophy and all the onlookers are mere foils to show off the awesomeness which is Socrates.

Enter Sam.

To me, this is forced writing. For many of the issues and subjects, well...the things which 'might' be refuted, you did refute. Many other issues which were NOT so easily dismissed...if mentioned at all got a hand wave 'I'll think about that later" or, if SERIOUS, didn't get mentioned at all.

What happened if she got pregnant with someone else? What happened if the MAN became obsessed with her? What happened if he WAS married...and was a liar? What if they got named in a divorce as a result? What happens when LESS generous friends than Janelle sees them. Do they live in SUCH a major metropolis that what she is doing will always be able to avoid people who know her? What happens when she RESENTS being 'grounded' or being the goat...or starts to take her 'gift' for granted? What happens when he realizes (he seems in deep denial right now) that HE has to hunt...and hunt...and hunt for a woman...and all his wife needs to do is fall backwards with her legs spread to get all the cock she wants?

As he has CLEARLY stated...she is on thin ice...and he even stated it is getting THINNER. Even this force wrote 'correct man' cannot help but admit that things are getting WORSE, not better, at least according to how you wrote the story.

And frankly, when asked 'Do you think I am a henpecked wimp?", as his friend, I would have answered, "Half an hour ago, I would have said no. Now I have more information about you. But I certainly don't look at you the same way and I DO care about you. You can go on about how you don't give a shit what society thinks, but there is a very distinct reason TO care. Society may not be so forgiving as I am...and they can hurt you a lot more. And since I am attached to you, your actions might very well hurt me, if only because I care about you."

But this is one of those things which you, as the writer, did not want to get into, because the story, at the end of the day, WAS all about establishing this as a valid, good and safe lifestyle. It is not 'brainwashing' which makes people leery of this. It is HISTORY which makes us leery of this. It is seeing how these things tend to play out which makes us think this. How many of the open marriage disaster stories had another 'Jesse' saying the exact same things?

What is driving him is arrogance. The subtext from him is very much "Why hasn't any OTHER smart, secure and independent men figured this out?" HE is evolved and Sam...has this nice little safe thing which works for him which I will not mock him about out of friendship.

It really helped to have this Stepford Wife as some perfect person to make this seem as safe as possible. Who will give up ALL her rights. Who is NEVER persuaded to bend the rules...just a bit. Who is willing to wear a GPS collar all the time. Who walks out on a guy when she is randy and willing to go...because he can magically believe every word which comes out of her mouth. Sure he can. What happens in real life when dealing with NON Iconic figures? Where people take 'gifts' for granted? Another one of those issues you do not wish to address.

So no, this really didn't persuade me particularly much. I think you did as good a job presenting the case as could be done. Maybe I am just too 'narrow minded'. Because the divorce rate among swingers is pretty damned high. Why is that, do you think?

I would seriously think of putting the comments on 'named people only' for this story.

j, you have written another terrifically thought-provoking story of discordant relationships. This was an in-depth revelation of the personal interaction between your character's Sam & Jesse.

I think you should write this story again from the viewpoint of the two wives, Janelle and Debra. And even consider a third story from the POV of Jesse and Debra's paramours?

As for the commentators expressing their dismay at this intellectual exercise you have created. They grew up dreaming of being Superman. They lived lives of endless toil and quiet despair trying to be Clark Kent. And now, at the end of their lives? They have to face the bitter realization that they never even achieved the status of Jimmy Olsen.

However, I also think there is an important point to Sam's arguments favoring fidelity in an 'Officially" sanctioned marriage, that everyone is unwilling to consider. Sam's rhetorical logic demanding fidelity by his wife Janelle but never making the same demand upon himself.

If you had carried this story further, to the time after the two men had left the bar, ostensibly heading to their homes and 'Loving Wives'? Sam would have stopped for a quickie with one of his girlfriends. Or, pulled his car over into an alley for a five dollar blowjob from whoever, whatever, hung out there, waiting for their sanctimonious customers to pull in.

Continuing homeward, Sam would have arrived to treat Janelle to a tirade about how weak Jesse had been, not beating Debra into submission. And, how he, Sam would never tolerate such independent behavior from 'His" chattel.

Now THAT would be 'Honesty' in Advertising!

what happens to retrenched eunuchs.

Now I know, they come here and write stories.

A marvelous 1*

@Sugne You are wrong. It is independent to believe god or to be atheist to agree the best is the intact loving family for the kids. The cheating, not mononagamous marriage (with some rare exceptions) type is not good for the kids, because this destroys the sure background for the kids. This is understandable from evolutionist POV too!

First of all I get why the open relationship might work for first of two couples involved and maybe for the second. But the bottom line is that embarking on that tenuous territory you are trusting and traveling with a liar and a cheat who is offering you new freedoms and potential pleasures only after they were CAUGHT enflagrante.

Say what you like about Kristi from 'Words' , she self confessed her new vision of marriage and was not detected by husband. On a personal level, I could never trust a cheater to hold to new code of honor after they weren't able to hold to old one.

To live with a cheater who professes their new way means when you leave the house you have to consider locking away valuables that might be exposed to wife's new flame and less savory aquaintances. Afterall if a person will cheat, why wouldn't they steal ?

You have to wonder if sheets you sleep on , have been soiled during the day. Exposure to STDs? Condoms needed for woman who wears your ring. You have to keep your guard up around the one person you THOUGHT could implicitly trust with your love and life. Some people can trust and forgive trespasses of faith easier then me.

Maybe , just maybe for the sake of kids , I would do all those things. But setting aside portion of earnings and portfolio for contigency divorce war chest would be my unspoken wrinkle to new regime. People are people. Mistakes are made. Monogamy is not one size fits all. But one thing is transcendent - when a person can be trusted to hold to their promises. Treasure that person.

When a spouse steps out on the sly , gets caught and begs forgiveness . Maybe you go ahead together into abyss of life, based on their other hopefully more stellar values and qualities . But in terms of aforementioned, absolute trust . To quote David Spade SNL character. "Buh-bye".

Very nervy and provocative story by jezzaz. It's a little coldblooded for my taste. A lot of " tell " versus " show " . But maybe that was what was necessary to present discomfitting, marital makeover. Fuck diet beer though. Drink the good stuff and get on treadmill the day after. I thank the author . Go Broncos. Hoping Payton goes Omaha-haha on Pittsburgh.

You're here representing the asshole of the world and you're their leader. Now go fuck yourself. gave this a 5

Subject was not my cup of tea because it was initiated after an initial cheating episode by a "bored" (pul-lease) wife. However, I do respect a differing opinion when that person has a logical, well thought and effective way of supporting their thoughts. Even if I don't like or understand it I can appreciate they have the right to not believe the same way I do. So I can identify with Sam's skepticism but I can also see that Jesse is in charge of his life and has made a complicated decision after careful contemplation. Not sure if Jezzaz's decision is personal or simply putting an idea out there but I liked the story and the process of two friends discussing a difficult subject. Wonder what Janelle will think?

Was always a fan of your work, but lately you've been all "willing cuck" mode, and I'm no longer eager to open your stories when you post them. I know there is an audience for stuff like that, but it's not my cup of tea. More power to you, if this is what gets you going, but I'm out.

I used to look forward to read your stories but each new one is worst than the previous.

I am not a die hard BTB, nor a RAAC, I do believe every situation is different but certainly I do not understand how a man can sink that low to "save" the marriage he did not jeopardize to begin with. He was working late, away from home, etc. just different ways to justify lack of a moral compass.

One star, sadly there is no lower.

True. This is not everyone's cup of tea. This is a great example that a marriage is whatever two people want it to be. What works for them. There is clearly love and respect between them. She has done everything she could to make up for her mistake.

They made the rules and they follow them. What is it that people think it is any of their business how others conduct their marriage.

LW never fails to disappoint, with people critiquing the characters themselves instead of the writing.

You had a point to make, and you made it. You even did it through two characters' well-expressed perspectives, which is more than most of the people fretting over terms like BtB, wimp, or WAAC can do (let us all pray for the day when Stang learns to have multiple coherent characters of different personality types and attitudes in a story) That's all well and good. My concern is two-fold:

1. You interject a substantial amount of back-story setup into the opening dialog. Front-loading back-story is one of the most common mistakes on LW, but here it felt especially frustrating because we were waiting on the tone-setting that came from the dialog. "Well you see..." (backstory) "...the thing is..." (backstory) "it's like this," makes for an aggravating start.

2. There wasn't really any story wrapped around this point you had to make. There was no reason for the reader to invest, after the first page, because nothing was left to happen and everybody's opinion was clear. From the moment he admits to an open relationship, nothing is at stake in this story. It might have played better if it had been a part of something larger, such as a character struggling to decide between an open marriage and divorce and consulting two very opined friends. Then we'd still be waiting to see which one he chooses, and would still therefore be invested.

You remain one of the strongest, most capable writers on this site, obviously. I look forward to your next effort.

... that this is in the right category. Maybe Non-Erotic? Still, it's one of the more probing pieces on this topic that I've seen. No question that it's 5, only because I can't give it anything better.

Please...

The BTB crowd are mostly unemployed white trash who have never been able to attract or retain a desirable woman--so their reaction is to hate all women. They hate any relationship because they've never been able to have one.

Fortunately, they are a shrinking minority who are rapidly being replaced by smarter harder-working risk-taking immigrants.

Get tired of the preaching from the lifestyle advocates, just write another story as good as "Live from the Game"

Jezzaz has used an interesting device to explore a complex topic, with Sam and Jesse representing two viewpoints.

The topic is so tangled up in societal norms and personal attitudes that it is impossible to explore all facets in one story such as this one. Jesse is shown as being unexpectedly presented with a situation of his wife being unfaithful. Coming to terms with that would take some doing. He did do it.

He is, however, then shown as not fully trusting his wife, requiring her to sign a post-nup agreement and laying down rules for her to follow in her external relationships. There is still an element of ownership of one partner by another in this story.

There is a stage beyond that to which Jezzaz took Jesse. It is one where one partner trusts the other to make mature, intelligent, adult decisions.

D

and evades the basic issues. If anyone has been brainwashed, it ain't most people.

This isn't enlightened, open, or elevated thinking, in my opinion and experience, but a rationalization for narcissism and self-gratification and an excuse for those who put self before relationship. And, it certainly isn't new rationalizing, it's just putting new lipstick on the same old pig.

All that said, it open relationships float your boat, you should go for it and enjoy unless that includes betrayal, deceit, humiliation, and unsolicited pain. But please drop the pretense and the claim to enlightenment.

If the point of this was to show two opposing views that have potentially equal validity, you pretty much failed. Jesse, by his own admission, doesn't have the same feelings for his wife that he did before her first affair. Their relationship will die the death of a thousand cuts as any intimacy they had gets slowly strangled by her continued insistence of experiencing some strange. This is not a thriving, vibrant marriage of equals. It's a corpse that doesn't know its dead yet and continues to jerk around in a semblance of life.

At this point. she obviously as little to any respect for him and she'll continue to lose what little she does have as he continues to allow her to sleep with others. It's hypocritical, given what she's asked, but his knuckling under to her pressure shows that he's weak and eventually she'll get to a point where she just drifts away because she's lost whatever feelings she once had.

Yes, I do comment about the characters and the story more than I do about the quality and style of the writing. I'm not a literary critic, I'm a reader. I would think that any author who can make his characters sufficient;y real for the reader to be invested enough to care about them and comment would and should be proud of his creation.

That was a snoozefest.......can any more bullshit be crammed into a single story?

This open marriage founded Jesse loses 50% of his part of the share to his wife in the divorce.................

Again I read so many negative comments about the content of an outstandingly written story. I, too, don't admire the lifestyle that's described. I'm doubtful that the author does either if you truly digest what he has written, but what does that have to do with the quality of the writing? Also, those of you who were so critical must have kept reading considering the vehemence of your criticism. Tells you something, doesn't it?

Fading feelings, no trust, no respect, and this is enlightened? I've seen successful open relationships, this isn't one lol. They are not for everyone, an definitely not for the character, with his shit tier trust and fading feelins

no-body except HE. TK U MLJ LV NV

You know you've done your job well when you read soooo many negative comments. Seems you've touched a nerve that, evidently, a lot of the readers couldn't handle. Personally, I found it to be an outstanding piece of writing. Good presentation (seems many stories here never get out of the starting gate on THAT one!), excellent dialog, and a delightful way of presenting some ideas that, hopefully, will be fertile seeds for some to think about. Well done!

the destruction of a friendship and a business. There is no way they can continue to be friends as couples. Their values are diametrically opposed. They will never see each other the same again. There will always be an element of disrespect, now that everyone knows that Debra is a cheating, manipulative slut, and Jesse is a weak desperate man with no self-respect

If you're being intellectually honest, you would make it clear that Sam would not allow Debra around his family. She's a disease.

In fact from Jesse's point of view it appears that his entire marriage has been reduced to the money and all of the rest is rationalization.

The writing is good but needs a ruthless editor. The argument between two points of view is really about how much Jesse loses if he divorces her.

If I were Jesse's partner in the business I would be looking for ways to dissolve the partnership immediately. Who knows what else Jesse would be able to rationalize despite damage done to the partnership.

And a logical argument. But not a real argument. The reality is that Jesse needed a completely one-sided post-nup (whose legality was probably suspect), permission for him to fuck other women and complete and utter control of where his wife was at all times to even begin to feel comfortable with her cheating. And his admission that he's still concerned about her whereabouts and what she's doing indicates his level of discontent within the marriage. Jesse's argument that she isn't cheating since she has his permission does not hold water. Between the two of them, they may not consider themselves to be cheaters, but to most of the people that count, their parents, friends and family, they're cheating. Those are simply the facts. You can color those facts and try to explain them in another light, but that doesn't change the facts. This was well written but incomplete. I felt that Sam would go home, discuss the issue with his wife and decide that he just wasn't comfortable with the situation. He's already mentioned a couple of the issues and more will crop up. I do think he has lost his respect for his friend. That will lead to them not socializing and eventually lead to the termination of the partnership. Well written but flawed conclusion.

Emotional men respond with violence, running away, etc - all the tropes.

Choosing to trust is an Intellectual exercise, plenty of people just haven't evolved to the point where Reason trumps Emotion. A cursory scan of the comments in this category is proof enough of that.

depth and scope of the Unorginalist's comments. He is not trying to insult, degrade, or debase writers. He simply trims the fat off every story he comments on and reveals the meat, be it good, bad, or indifferent. I just may wait for him to comment on a story to see if I want to read it. I have never seen more intelligent, unbiased critiques than our own Unoriginalist posts on a regular basis. In truth, his observations are often better than the story upon which he comments.

This is a very intelligent examination of one type of open marriage.

It looks at it from the husband's point of view.

Could we have the wife's side of this, please?

I'd be very interested to see her justifications and rationalisations.

It's more about Sam trusting Jesse. His best friend, his business partner, just revealed to him that he was no longer the man he knew, no longer holding the same core beliefs. If he could tolerate this from his wife, seduced into radically different values, what would keep him from betraying him or the business? What really went on in California? It's the beginning of the end for them, and neither of them realize it yet.

Of course Sam, and maybe his wife, will try to accept their lifestyle, but it will eat at them. Will Janelle ever trust Debra around Sam again? Would Sam be comfortable if Janelle suddenly started hanging out with Debra more? Would Janelle watch her like a hawk at parties and social gatherings, wondering if she's working the crowd for a new conquest? Jesse, in spite of his 'expanded' view of life, will always, at least subconsciously, wonder the same things. Every new encounter will drive the wedge a little deeper. Every time she goes out, it increases the odds that sooner or later he'll encounter one of them. Could he handle it? Could she handle it if she meets a woman at a party who drunkenly tells her and everyone in earshot about the little sexual adventure she had with Jesse? Would the slight smirks he gets from her lovers, the undertones of disrespect be palatable to him?

It's a heady subject, and I think you've just scratched the surface. In my opinion, a follow up story where all these things play out would be interesting, if not enjoyable. Think about it.

It was an interesting read.

Q

This story cries for more. Maybe two different endings. One where the lifestyle is accepted and the other where it is not.

The guy is essentially a cuck, no more and certainly no less. They are in business together and what if his employees discover the lifestyle. How will it affect the business. Will the customers want to do business with a cuck. In this area I doubt it. Many might assume that since one owner is a cuck then the other owner might be also. Are there kids involved ? once it becomes known that one is a cuck they will find out. I know of one couple with a similar lifestyle and most avoid them at all costs. Almost life they have a terminal disease and they are afraid of catching it by just being in the same room. The man in the relationship has no friends while she goes out and fucks at will.

No one can make you be a cuck, it is a personal decision but it will isolate you from friends.

Wrong.

Those of us able to compartmentalize our lives understand the difference between personal and professional. Sure, finding out someone isn't a bible-thumper or doesn't like Trump might be a deal-breaker for some, but savvy businessmen can clearly see how his arrangement INCREASES trust.

Don't talk about shit you obviously have no knowledge about - the honesty Jesse and Debra now have and his ability to explain it so well ADDS to his stature in the eyes of a smart businessman.

"excuse for those who put self before relationship"

palecuck identifies the main distinction between Alpha and beta men: insecure betas insist that their definition of "relationship" based on religion and fear is the "right" one.

Alphas think for themselves and define the world on their terms - betas let the world impose definitions for them.

(If it was more universally accepted, most of Matt Moreau's stories could never happen, ~smile). I'm not sure that it would work for most people, but I'm sure it does work for some.

Interesting story, thanks for writing.

Front loading backstory can be a problem if there is something at stake later in the story, which in this case there isn't. The backstory acted as character development and scene setting because there wasn't a typical three act plot happening.

Unusually obtuse and contradictory comment from a usually coherent commenter.

As Lance said "I'm not sure that it would work for most people, but I'm sure it does work for some."

There are so many among the LW commentariat who know that they couldn't cope with it personally, and so they then assume that it couldn't work for anybody.

They then say that it is universally wrong and nobody should do it. Well, this is a big wide world with a lot of different people doing a lot of different things. And some of those people don't upset themselves if their spouse wanders and gets a bit of entertainment elsewhere.

L

Ps: For those who missed it, there was a good story of a wandering wife and an accepting husband submitted yesterday. It was listed as Interracial Love, so those interested only in LW may have overlooked it. It was called 'Angela's Choice' and was submitted by hunter_gatherer.

Commenters like palewriter and the anon cowards feel the need to read stories about cuckolding because, deep down, they wish they could do that. They wish they could get a girlfriend, let alone one who would fulfill those fantasies for them. But they can't, and they won't admit what they want. So they spend their time angrily ranting about morality in porn stories to try to hide how hard their usually useless little dicks get thinking about these links. There's no reason to ever take comments by the morality police like them seriously.

What makes you think that you can look into other people's minds and decide what motivates them? Does it matter that they express an opinion different from yours? You can express your viewpoint and they can express theirs.

Just so long as they don't try to impose their opinion on you, why worry?

And if you must make critical comments about others, could you please try to do it nicely and politely?

L

I FELL ASLEEP, WHAT HAPPENED ??? SHIIT , IT WAS SOOO BORING. FUCK, I MIGHT USE THIS DRIBBLE AS AMBIEN SURROGATE.

Are you trying to sound stupid? Doesn't take a psych degree to read these comments in this context and draw educated conclusions - a survey course would be more than enough to see the motivations and psychoses behind those comments.

Get a fricking grip luedon, jeezus.

Very good dialogue (in the original sense) about a matter at the core of LW. The conversation DID include the basic criteria of this category: An adventurous wife and the resultant impact on Hubby, and the accommodation and development of their marriage. Different in that Sweetie was not directly heard from at all!

Another piece that should be required reading for couples applying for a marriage license. Unlike many, I do NOT believe that Jezzaz is advocating for 'open marriage!'. As I read it, both Hubby AND Sweetie would have preferred that her extramarital explorations not have happened! GIVEN, however, that those DID happen, they (mostly Hubby) worked out a solution FOR THEM after Sweetie convinced him that he was 'First,' even if no longer 'Only.'

The one retort that I expected to many of Hubby's partner's "what if" statements about eventual dissolution, but that I never saw, was "Those things happen all the time to men (and women) who never saw them coming! Sweetie and I KNOW that we have to BOTH work our asses off for the rest of our lives to prevent them from happening to us!"

Finally, I dearly wish most readers (or at least commenters) would separate a) how much they agree with the outcome of the author's tale, and b) how well the author manages the story ... character development, plausibility, consistency, plot structure, language mechanics, et cetera. This story peaks early, for example, followed by tons of Sam's objections and Hubby's countering rationale. But, in this context, it works ... and works well! BUT, I am glad I'm not in Hubby's shoes! (Hubby would also rather be in his old shoes!)

5*

Of course jezzaz is selling her brand of "open marriage", it's obvious from the crypto-Socratic bullshit.

One of the most thoughtful stories about open relationships I've seen so far. Yes, I think there are still many problems with Jess & Debi's relationship - not least, the "don't ask / don't tell" aspect of it, with dire consequences if broken. That doesn't bode well. But there seems to be more realism / knowledge than not here, and that's good to read.

I'd be interested in a follow up story.

The time taken to search out and cultivate the next relationship is theft from the present relationship and building a relationship to the point of fucking 4 times is very time consuming. Then the background checks. Then the introductions, it is not going to happen. How many times would you have to see your mates partner out flirting, loving and realise it is a marriage awry. There goes respect. There goes your family life, where do children fit in? Think this conversation through again.

Jesse is so gullible. Debra used her smoke and mirrors act so she has her open marriage. Apparently from what Sam's wife saw, Debra is not playing by the rules and probable hasn't for some time. At least Jesse is in his happy place.

Actually its a great conversation between two friends with differing points of view. I love the discussions that are presented in both the story and the comments. First of all, thank you for your contribution to this site.(actually this community) The problem that arises in this story is the unbalance of power. To have a true meaningful agreement, you should have both somewhat equal power and stake in the marriage. By being almost out on her ass, Debra would agree to anything. She may or maynot find it all fair. Any change in the marriage borne out of deceit is on loose footing. If they had a talk before she acted unilaterally, there would be an agreement that had consent and a feedback loop.

Jesse is not a classic cuck. He has no enjoyment in Debra's cheating. At least a cuck gets something from the agreement. When one sits home and the other is out, it has to be murder. Maybe if they both played on the same night that could alleviate the angst while waiting for the prodigal spouse.

Thanks for letting Jesse be able to play also. I hate one sided stories. Good for the gander and all. I would have suggest to Jesse if I were Sam to even up the amount of playing for both parties. All in all this was a very entertaining story. The set up was one of the best in a while. There are plenty of chapters that can come from this story. I appreciate stories where there are rules, because if any one can fuck Jesse's wife at any time and he is alright with it, there is no tension, hence no story. Maybe future stories can either reinforce or abandon certain rules. Five giant stars.

* * * * * Keep on writing!

Just rationalizing his ongoing humiliation...

That is the only criteria a wannabe cuckold is going to use for rating a story.

but I kept on looking for the twist like Sam finding out Jesse was sexing Sam's wife or that Sam's wife was cheating. A lot of words but not much tension or drama to keep your attention.

anon.1

....in my case, the story was a pretty well defined setup in which to make the case.

It may not be entirely accurate or even entirely correct in its representation of either side(based on the two men), but it is a decent attempt to make the case (at least one side of it. ;-]. ).

Might be interesting for the girls to talk it out at lunch.....

Thank you.

Its like listening to a drug user explain that his use is completely recreational, and not an addiction. Its like listening to a smoker explain that he can quit any time he chooses. Its like listening to a 300 pound woman explain that she never eats desert, or goes back for seconds. Its like listening to an insurance salesman explain that whole life is like a savings account, plus a long term investment. Its like listening to Bill Clinton explain that he never had sex with that woman, who was sucking his cock. Its like listening to Debra assure Jesse that she loves only him, that her bulls always wear condoms, and that she never swallows (So what is it that Debra is douching out of her pussy and/or ass, as Jesse explains to Sam, before coming home?) Its just more self-serving bullshit from the I wanna fuck around with no consequences crowd.

So, despite the long drawn out pseudo psychological justifications, its just makes Jesse look that much more stupid, humiliated, and intellectually and emotionally eating the cum of Debra's lovers, which she is feeding not to his mouth, but to his dysfunctional brain and pathetically broken heart. What Sam and Janelle need to do is prepare a room for Jesse, and start introducing him to very sympathetic and compassionate women who know and embrace what being in a marriage means. They know that one day he will be knocking on their door, looking for a refuge, and a new life partner. If Debra was truly sorry and remorseful she would never even look at another man except Jesse. The sorrow and pain in his eyes would be her sorrow and pain, magnified by the fact that she is the cause. Instead she is fucking Jesse harder than any of her lovers, the only difference being that she is fucking with Jesse's mind, while her bulls get the real sex.

I would like to say nice try, but there are already enough lies associated with this story.

Sums up the virgins pretty neatly. No one ever looks at a neckbeard, so that idea holds true in the basement that passes for their real world.

Out here in regular human-land, people look at each other all the time - only the rules about whether to do more than look is at issue.

Once the couple in this story worked out those rules life could go on. Insecure virgins can hang onto fantasies of no one ever looking.

Could be a weird Thesis for some weird college coarse. Thanks for sharing.

I've had 'open relationships' in the past, they were called 'fuck buddies'. Not even 'girlfriends', and certainly not 'wives'. We had a lot of fun, we were great friends who got along fine. But we didn't live together, or pretend to make that kind of commitment. We didn't have to worry about 'trust'. We didn't have to put much work or effort into it. And that's why it worked, until we found other people.

Real marriages take a lot of hard work, investment, and trust. Without that, it doesn't last. In a relationship where a bored spouse can go play with fire, and the other one doesn't even trust them with matches... Chances are the whole thing just burns down.

There is no single way to live our lives ..everyone can have his choice ..if both the partners in a marriage agree to certain mode of life and are happy about it ..let them have it ...there should not be any problems ....

I laugh when I see the characters saying in these LW stories that they still love the person who betrayed them. There was a person in my life that I loved and respected who betrayed me a few years ago. At the time, I hated and resented that person for the betrayal, and only after a long time did the hate and resentment go way. But the thing is, the love and respect went away too.

You should be quartered by horses.

Anonymous, you say "There was a person in my life that I loved and respected who betrayed me a few years ago. At the time, I hated and resented that person for the betrayal, and only after a long time did the hate and resentment go way. But the thing is, the love and respect went away too."

That is, of course, very sad. But when you use the word "betrayed" and when others use pejoratives such as "cheated" or even "infidelity" then of course you will be hurt if it happens. Your starting point is that it is wrong and bad. The words used reflect that attitude.

Not everybody has that same attitude or start from the same point. Some people see allowing a spouse to wander outside marriage as an expression of freedom or experimentation or a variety of other things. They are unlikely to hate or resent a partner who wanders. They can retain the love and respect that you say you lost.

L

I believe the rules of any relationship are what is consensually agreed between the two parties, being deceitful is not big and it's not clever. When Sam explains the situation to Janelle and then she talks to Debra, well maybe there is a continuation with this story.

Part 2: turns out Janelle, Debra and Jesse are conspiring to get Sam to buy this idiotic rationalization in order to sell him on this "open marriage".

Weak minded arguments that somehow become convincing to the initial cynic. It happens all the time on this site. Why is it that the cuckold supporter always seems to win the argument?

"Betrayal is the breaking or violation of a presumptive contract, trust, or confidence that produces moral and psychological conflict within a relationship amongst individuals, between organizations or between individuals and organizations. Often betrayal is the act of supporting a rival group, or it is a complete break from previously decided upon or presumed norms by one party from the others. Someone who betrays others is commonly called a traitor or betrayer. Betrayal is also a commonly used literary element and is often associated with or used as a plot twist."

More rationalization?

And I think in his story Words, the author has got a track record in rejecting cuckoldry. However one of the anon commentators had an interesting suggestion for a Part 2 where this is just a set up by the friend and both their wives. I'd like to read that

Thanks for your efforts anyway.

Haven't felt the need to comment for a while, but this was interesting. I wasn't swayed by the husband's arguments and I felt that he still drank the koolaid, but the differing points of view and the originality of the premise was a nice change from the usual storylines. The fact that this story elicited such a response is proof of its effectiveness. In my opinion, when people want to discuss aspects of your story and argue about, that is far more telling than a mere score. The score is a click of the mouse. When people take time to comment, that shows their investment. I'm sure jezzaz has gotten a ton if emails.

For those of you who suddenly want to call him a cuck or open marriage apologist, have you read his other stories? A writer can write something just to get a response. Doesn't mean that he feels that way. Besides that, he explored BOTH sides of the argument. Neither side "won" or "lost". Both sides stated their point and left it at that. People on this site feel that the mere mention of an open relationship in a neutral tone is a justification of it. Grow up.

I actually enjoyed the story, even though I disagreed with it. Nice job.

Open marriage with kid's is very unhealthy.

I hope sam and his wife see this.

I hope jeff decides to avoid starting a family.

Jeffs wife is partaking a dangerous path health wise.

If she is starting bdsm it can get out of hand.

She will get pregnant or worse if not very careful.

So here we are, reading a debate. If I wanted to talk about a philosophy I would have paid and gone to the university.

What the hell happened, Jezzaz. You don't write stories anymore? An introduction with an antagonist and protagonist. The main body, plot developes and conflicts occur. Conclusion with a climax and resolution. An occasional afterword or epilogue.I hope this criticism is taken, with the intent to assist you in your future posts.

Thank you for your efforts.

AMerryman

i cant stand it, every time i hear crap like this i want to puke. why is it when you dont want to let your wife cheat your a knuckle dragging cave man. hell women are more jealous than men are. if this happened to me, a friend caught his wife cheating and now they had an open relationship. he wouldnt be my friend anymore. i cant have a friend that i cant respect. i have lost friendships over cheating. i found out a male friend was cheating on his wife. i told his wife, yes i lost a friend but i didnt consider him a friend at that point anyway. you cant build a relationship based on cheating. as for this story. if they had an open relationship just what the hell is in their postnup anyway. that she cant disrespect him, how is that gonna be proven anyway. this was all bullshit.

"I'm still married, she still loves me, I still love her, we are still a couple. "

One does not cheat on someone they love and respect no matter how bored they are unless they are just a low life scum bag with no morals. Loving someone means being faithful and trustworthy. Wifey was neither.

"Look Sam, I don't own her, ok? "

No but expecting each partner to uphold their end of a contract - a vow - a PROMISE is not saying either owns the other.

"The way you are talking you'd think your wife was someone you dragged back to your cave by the way of her hair. We aren't cavemen any more."

Well actually we are still cavemen. Go watch "Defending the Caveman".

"So much of a relationship these days really seems to be about demonstrable possession. 'You can't do this or that, because it reflects badly on me'."

Well if it doesn't reflect badly on him why the point in their post-nup about not playing where family friends might find out? Eh? It isn't possessing or "owning" someone to expect them to voluntarily keep their promise, their vow. It's not like wifey is wearing a slave collar... Uh, except when she is and I've got her on a leash. :)

"You think I have no self-respect because I'm not 100% in the same camp as you when it comes to defining what self-respect actually means?"

You can respect your self all you want and nobody give a rats ass. What counts is do others respect you.

Sam then says to his buddy "hey do you mind if I bang your wife?" Sure why not.... She's just a slut anyone can use...

"I don't do it as much as her,"

Why not? Oh, because your a cuck... With a tiny limp dick.. If it was me I'd be out banging at least two women for every one of her "dalliances". I'm not into getting even, I'm into getting ahead. And lots of head.

"She gets to play away from home, and I get the same. But it only works with respect."

Respect? And you don't play as often... Uh, huh... Yeah. Respect.

"What do I care what some random guy thinks about me? I know who I am. Debra knows who I am. You know who I am. My parents and my brother know who I am. All the people who matter know who I am."

What does Sam think of him now? Do his parent and brother know he's a cuckold? Now they don't know who he really is do they...

"If Debra gets pregnant, we stop."

Oh, and who's the daddy? That post-nup have a mandatory DNA test clause?

"That I'm a henpecked husband with a wife who doesn't respect me?"

Denial... Of course that is exactly what he is...

@Luedon

"But when you use the word "betrayed" and when others use pejoratives such as "cheated" or even "infidelity" then of course you will be hurt if it happens. Your starting point is that it is wrong and bad. The words used reflect that attitude."

How did people get so fucked in the head that using plain english descriptive words to describe "the facts" of a situation some how makes those pejoratives? And isn't saying those words were pejorative pejorative? Who but a masicist would imply that being betrayed, cheated, or infidelity was anything but wrong and bad?

"Not everybody has that same attitude or start from the same point. Some people see allowing a spouse to wander outside marriage as an expression of freedom or experimentation or a variety of other things. They are unlikely to hate or resent a partner who wanders. They can retain the love and respect that you say you lost."

No they can't. Not the same kind of love and respect faithful couples have. And there is a huge difference between mutually consenting partners, as swingers, and being betrayed, cheating and infidelity. In the later case one partner wasn't given the opportunity to freely choose the lifestyle.

"Choosing to trust is an Intellectual exercise, plenty of people just haven't evolved to the point where Reason trumps Emotion."

Only a fool trusts... Only a fool would believe trust was rational. And only the paranoid survive... And certainly anyone that thinks trust isn't emotional should never be trusted.

"Don't talk about shit you obviously have no knowledge about - the honesty Jesse and Debra now have and his ability to explain it so well ADDS to his stature in the eyes of a smart businessman."

And what planet are you from? The potential harm to a partnership is huge if Jesse wife's lifestyle is discovered.

I finished reading the comments after I posted my opinion.

It was a pleasant surprise to see theunoriginalist. It is reassuring to see I wasn't the only person to see that this wasn't a story. Of course his commentary was written better and more politely than my own.

Jezzaz, I realized that RichardGerald's "Jailbreaking" is a good example of what you wanted to accomplish. A debate about marriage with a very good story wrapped around it. It gets a lot of comments also, lol.

AMerryman

One: For the most part (save the bottom of page one), most of this was technically well written. So commenting about the technical aspects of the writing are not interesting to me. Jezzaz has made his bones writing wise, though he sometimes falls prey to a light breezy conversational style which wanders into the weeds. (see Live from the Game).

The MEAT of this is strictly in the ideas presented. Did he make as good a case for open marriage as one could find? I believe so. That said, it is like making the best case for apartheid...you can do the best you can, but that does not make it a STRONG case. If Jeffery Dahmer's Lawyer ONLY gets him in the slam for 20 years, it is a WIN for him!

And, from the structure and the areas that jezzaz danced around without addressing, I would say that while it is not certain, the way he framed this suggests advocacy. I apologize if this is mistaken, but it sounds like it.

But one issue, on rethinking this story, very much puts Jesse's assertions in doubt. His wife was caught cheating. She proved pitifully pliable to penises.

SHE revisited the issue a very short time later. I compare this to Richard Gerald's excellent piece on an open marriage. There, the woman KNEW she was not a 'faithful' kind of woman. The man was able to make an informed choice. That life pushed his motives made it truly excellent.

Here...Jesse is stuck with a pig in a poke. When his wife came back to suggest opening the marriage, one already crippled by infidelity, the obvious take away from this was 'this is likely happening if you are or are not on board, buster.' Even if she did not mean to state this case (and jezzaz knows the characters), HIS interpretation had to include this to some degree. She has this little worm in the back of her head...and her husband now knows this.

That makes all the macho posturing about pre-nups, GPS, and fucking in front of the wife to ring hollow, at least to me. HE has a weak hand...and you can either fold, lose or bluff.

Methinks he is bluffing himself.

I didn't read this story until it had been posted for a few days. By the number of comments it achieved I decided to read it.

Now I understand that relationships are not a one size fits all category , but it seems to me that the author is basically trying to denigrate the institution of marriage. I know that it is now intellectually "cool" to denigrate Religion, Marriage and other so called societal institutions by people of a progressive political outlook. Just as those of a conservative political outlook like to denigrate the Government, Unions, and the Media, that being said, where would our society be today without all these things ?

If Jesse and his wife had come into their marriage with both being open to this lifestyle, or if the wife had come to the husband with this before she was caught cheating then I'd say to each their own! But it didn't happen that way. I believe that Jesse, despite his protestations , did just go along for sake of his marriage (and his money) not because of some grand enlightenment , but because of his age and his lack of self esteem . I also think his wife knowing him as well as a spouse knows their mate, sensed this and played him like a fiddle ! I mean screwing her boy toy on their own couch, come on. As for this magic postnup, do you really think that would stand up in today's judicial system ! She would scream that she was coerced into signing it and would probably gotten it thrown out. No she knew exactly how to play him so he thought he still had a modicum of control left in the relationship. To me this reeks of malice and forethought ! So overall this story while thought provoking , is to me the author standing on a soapbox preaching his vision of the way things should be instead of the way things are for the norm.

Now , one last note that doesn't apply to this story. Frontlinecaster , as I'm sure most of the regulars on this site know by now needs to be shunned by all others ! It is nothing but the lowest form of commentator on this site ! It regularly goes like an assassin of old , knifing the authorship and readership of this site in the back alike ! All the commentators and readers should know that it acts to get stories and members alike banned from Literotica ! Itself has said that because of stories it posted under a different name got trashed , that it has made its best to undermine the whole site ! Why the moderators of this site put up with this cancer , I simply can't fathom ! But now the rest of you know the whole story.

Cpprcrk

Brilliant and thought provoking. Jezzaz does it again. Five out of five.

This is the best piece I have read in a long time. This is what the sequel to Live From the Game should have been like. (Sorry really disliked that sequel,)

The effort in creating this two-sided argument is impressive. I really like how the author doesn't favour one over the other. Both have solid arguements with merits.

Now for chapter two I would like to see Sam and Jenelle have their follow up conversation. Chapter three will be Deb and Janelle discussing the situation. Chapter four will be Jesse and Deb reevaluating.

Get to work Jezzaz. ;-)

Cheers Steve

I had the privilege of editing this for my good friend Jezzaz, whose creativity and writing skills continue to impress me.

I thought that this is a very thought provoking discussion, and I can see it happening. The element, as many of you have noted, that "complicates" the plot is that they came into it in a bad way - her cheating.

That element, and the legitimate red flags that arise from it, makes the argument slightly unbalanced. Instead of just discussing the open marriage lifestyle, they necessarily have to also discuss the character of somebody that cheated.

But that is the story that Jezzaz wrote, and I think the argument has enough in it to make it really interesting even with that imbalance.

Jezzaz, thanks for writing and personal thanks for letting me help a little.