All Comments on 'The Surrogate Ch. 03'

For me... Chapter 3 could stand by itself. I loved the interaction between Michael and Teri, and her dealing with what happened. This one is definitely my favorite chapter of all three.

I would have wanted my cake and eat it too, Teresa, Johana, and Marina, too. I sure wouldn't be in a hurry to remarry. Great story and I agree that this chapter could have stood alone.

to ever read again.

Much, much more upbeat in tone than the previous two chapters. Well, except for Joanna. I kinda feel sorry for her now. But she's made her bed, and now she has to lie in it. (I wonder why Joanna went on a date when it's clear she still very much wants Michael back?)

"What kills me is that it was every bit as good as with Trevor"

This is what Michael wanted to avoid, constantly being compared to Trevor. Even with his PE troubles gone, she still compares him to Trevor.

And yes, I can see the parallel between Michael imagining the worst between Joanna and Trevor, and Teri imagining the worst between Michael and Marina.

The big difference ofcourse, is that Joanna was married to Michael at the time, and Michael hadn't even met Teri while he had sex with Marina.

You know, I really, REALLY thought that when Joanna came bursting in, Michael would give in, and just when they were having sex, Teri would appear and everything would go down the drain...Fortunately, that did not happen.

Michael has moved on, he is happy. A new woman who loves him and his children, and almost as importantly, knows his history.

Aside from a nagging feeling about Joanna (how she will end up), I think this is actually a good stopping point.

If there will be a chapter 4, I'll read it ofcourse, but this chapter wrapped things up nicely, IMO.

great!!!

Well written. There has to be several more to this story.

Ohio,

I loved the twists you added to this last chapter.

Mendon

I feel happy for the new couple and sad for the ex-wife. Ohio made the characters real and very human. That isn't easy to do. Thanks for all the talent, work, and skill used to create this great read.

Excellent plotting and wonderful characters. Thanks for coming back to us! There was a long drought there for a while!

A great ending to a very moving story. You are a master of character development. I savored every word. Although I was anxious to find out what would happen, I couldn't stop reading to peek ahead. Thanks for writing, I hope this is the start of more stories from Ohio!

Amazing realistic characters. Really able to feel the emotion. I was happy for Teri and Michael but very sad for Jo even though it was her cheating that caused her unhappiness. I would love to see another story with Jo and how she deals with life. I usually don't connect with the cheater but the way the character was written you can't help but feel sory for her. Terrific writing Ohio!

No reconciliation. Wow! <br><br>

This was a whole new direction, Michael hooking up with Marina's sister and the consequences of that. Very nicely done. It's very realistic. Yes, logically there should be no problem. But emotionally? A whole different story. Even the final resolution was good. She loves him too much to leave him but admits the situation will probably continue to bug her a bit. Emotional issues are not managed like a light switch. <br><br>

The only complaint is the brush off of a now pathetic Joanna, reduced to begging for sex "one last time". I guess the gratuitous sex before the divorce set this up since she now knows what a stud Michael is. It's wonderfully ironic because her dissatisfaction with Michael as a lover is what caused her problem and now she desperately craves him. You have worked to make her a flawed but sympathetic character. She didn't deserve to get back together with Michael but she shouldn't be trash at the side of the road either. That's kind of sad. Maybe a scene where she had found another guy she liked and after sex was wishing the guy was a better lover and realizing she had a better lover in Michael and threw him away.

He is often as unpredictable as he is good. He writes stories instead of statements.

Hyper super story, I think the "Yes" is sure. However I would like to have Teri and Michael common children!

excellent story with characters from real life. 5*

1 year of Pain... Months of therapy... and 5 months after the divorce and only NOW is Joanna seeing that Michael MIGHT be gone for good?

MIGHT ??... Holy shit.

I was 10000% wrong about the ending. I did not think OHIO would introduce a while new character in chapter 3.

The other really telling point here is that Joanna has NO clue. In chapters 1 and 2 she is stunned and shocked that Michael could ever possibly think He was being compared to Trevor.

Yet the first words out of her mouth and she is doing EXACTLY that.

Good ending

I understand that the divorce rate is over fifty percent now and still climbing. With that in mind, this is a realistic conclusion. The ex is realizing what she has lost now. And in keeping with the theme of my previous comments, this is the point that the ex-wife visits the doctor and comes away with two or three prescriptions that are supposed to keep her...even. Also, to keep her away from her ex husbands door late at night. It may not have been a happy ending, but it was realistic.

he drove her to adultry.not taking care of business.he new he had short comings,but didn't get help in time.

Simply superb - a really great story, told with real emotion (and emotional restraint) and just the right amount of detail.

Well done.

fuck you, idiot.

he did everything he knew to do at the time.

her response? she went and got fucked by someone else of her own free will.

when he tried to confide in her she shut him down, and went with another man.

she abandoned him, so as far as his ex-wife goes, fuck her.

she didn't stand by her man, so why the hell should he give her faithless ass another chance?

you're clearly too stupid to see the obvious.

You my friend are a great story teller. Thanks for sharing.

It seems to me as the author has a very diabolical mind, that he has the reader hating the cheating wife at first, but as the story continues the now ex-wife is pulling sympathy from me.

A very good mind fuck I might say. To bring emotion to the reader 180 degrees from where it has started.

I'm very interested into where the author will be leading us, the reader, in his twisted tale of sex and love.

It's a great tale from a very good story teller.

Thanks for the good story

Instead of those baleful efforts.

I think that Mike was a total ass, Jo was just as bad. If he had this problem of cumming to quickly would he not of tried to fix it early on in the marriage, not oh say after two kids? I mean really how the hell did Jo even get pregnant! Kudos to author, glad i could write something to show how much i liked the story! P.S. I hope Teri cheats on him as well ;)

This is sort of a happy ending. In fact, except for the thread that is Joanna, it is a stand alone story as 'the story of Marina, Michael and Teri' since it is a whole and separate subplot.

It seemed an odd direction but I liked it just the same. I ended it wondering if there is a chapter four on the horizon, since it didn't seem complete...but isn't that always the way of it? What DID Rhett do after leaving Scarlett? We'll never know and if you end this here, likewise. It CAN stand alone, I just don't want it to. But you said three chapters and you laid out three chapters.

Your stories never drag. They follow Lincoln's credo comparing speeches to dresses: long enough to cover the subject but short enough to be interesting.

These are complex and real characters. I feel sorry for Joanna (heck I've always felt a touch of sympathy for Joanna...) Michael has become more likable in this last story since he's stopped being a dick as he was in the first two chapters.

I thought your opening was interesting, jumping ahead a few months and leaping to girl talk. That was nicely done.

And let me end my tribute with Carthago delenda est...Oops. Sorry. Learn Capitalization!

Thanks for the entertainment. Thanks for submitting a new story, and please continue to entertain us. Mike from Texas.

It is very brave of Ohio to tackle the issue of PE in a story, and it must have taken quite a lot of serious research.

And the story was beautifully constructed, and very well written. Strong and positive and sad and moral and thoughtful. Thank you.

Thanks for having the courage not to reconcile them! But also thanks for not completely trashing the cheater. You took the time to flush out the happy ending that Michael deserved!! Bravo!! On the other hand, I came away with sympathy for his ex wife instead of pure contempt and joy for the pain she is in. She fucked up and she is paying for it. But I hope that she can get on with her life once she grows up a little bit.

Always nice to read a multi-part story that has an ending! Any ending at all!!!! (Is it warm in northeast Florida this time of year?)

Thanks again Ohio! Looking forward to your next story!

The story has two people with sexual problems. They can't communicate. One gets to work through his and has a happy ending. The other makes a mistake and pays and pays and pays.

A common thread in LW stories has become the male fairy tale of the wronged man, a prideful man whose pride is hurt, and who in varying degrees of remorseless righteousness achieves a male form of justice in which all of his suffering is acknowledged and those who caused it, particularly the woman, are cast into the depths.

Are men really that sad? Are they really this adolescent?

The genre has evolved to become a male equivalent of torn bodice romance.

Can't say I was terribly taken with this one. When the cheating spouse is unrepentant, I'm for a scorched earth policy, but in a story like this one where Joanna does seem truly a broken woman over her mistakes, I think less of Michael for walking away and disappointed with you for having him do so.

there is a cliche in all of ohio stories someone usually the woman makes a mistake and she has to pay for this mistake with the higher price i am pretty sure ohio has not heard the word i am sorry never in his life , but what is really gives him great pleasure is the thrill of the punishment he wants to humiliate the person that makes the mistake but he wants to do it with an excuse because he is such α ridiculous person with a heart full of hate

The last commentator has no idea what they are talking about. It's also very simple if he doesn't like Ohio's stories why is he reading them? If the commentator had read more of this writers work he would know that what he just wrote was utter nonsense.

Not sure I've ever read one that involved PE and a surrogate. It brings up some interesting points in the story, not the least is how a future spouse would feel about it. Even more complicated with the future spouse and the surrogate are sisters!

Good characters and great story. Thanks.

I agree that Joanne is clueless. But then again, so is Michael. I already made the point about their shared infidelity in previous comments, but Joanna's cluelessness is amazing,:

""It was ... well, it's like he's a different person. First of all, he lasted a long time. But even more than that, he was, I don't know, just different. Confident, relaxed. He took his time, got me really excited, and then when we did it he was ... in control."...."I have no idea why--maybe it was because he knew he was dumping me and he just didn't care anymore. But he was never cold or mean. I kept thinking that it meant something, all this great sex, that he wouldn't really go through with the divorce.""

As is Agnes, for not asking the OBVIOUS question: "So, why do you think he has so much control, given that he had lousy performance with other women BEFORE he met you?" As a therapist, she would know that PE would be a really hard thing to "cure." Why doesn't she ask Joanna why she hasn't asked him? Now that her dreams of him being her husband again are done and buried, now that there is nothing to lose?

I know the story is all tied up in a neat bow, but, as Cloacas points out--Joanna is in Purgatory, whilst the unfaithful Michael, frolics like a deer, in his Heaven. I can't help but wonder what would happen if the realities of Micheael's behaviour actually came out to Joanna and his new flame--all he says to Teri's queries about his surrogate work is that: "It stopped long before we--before I ever met you."" Ok, so, maybe he told her all about it, and maybe Teri was told about the timeline of his divorce, but Ohio is hazy on this, and Teri lacks any curiosity at all in asking him, and in following up what she is told by her sister. And she seems uninterested in raising this issue with Michael, even though we know she got badly burned in a previous relationship with a man. After all--"its all in the past." How glib. And how unlikely, given how people look to past actions to have some idea of future behaviour.

Its a solid morality play and male revenge fantasy, without a lot of complexity (even with the introduction of Marina's sister, which just reinforces the fantasy element). I say this because the things that could have been done to add emotional complexity and ambiguity are missing--and so, as a possibly appealing male fantasy, its OK. But as for actual emotional growth on the part of Michael, not alot (even if Elizabeth says so, I disagree; though I grant that he has increased his skill and confidence as a lover). And, as a slice of life that speaks to the deeper issues of our souls, nope-- for that requires what life has in buckets--complexity and ambiguity.

To lkatsaros: The world is full of haters of all sorts and if there was just a little bit more forgiveness and understanding there will less death and misery all over our planet. As for the author, I guess you can't blame him for his story, it's just a story after all. Yes, like most of us when we say and do things there is a bit of our own nature and experience in it and there must a bit of Ohio in his stories. The good part is that none of us has to behave the way the characters behave in Ohio's story. For my part, I like his writing style and narration of deep feelings but I don't agree with his morals.

To cloacas: I agree with your overall analysis. I just get a different read from this story. I feel the bad guy is Michael, not Joanna. I never read in any part of the story that he felt any love for his wife even before her infidelity. She accepted him with his problem and he was happy to be with, or hide in the fold of, the only person that would not reject him. Had he really loved her or cared for her he would have sought treatment much earlier. His hurt ego led him to seek treatment, not the love of his wife. He hid his treatment from her, he hid the fact that he was having sex with another woman without his wife's knowledge and support. I didn't feel sorry for Michael one single bit. He lost the moral high ground and once he found his physical abilities he dumped the only person that accepted him for what he was. Even his therapist was shocked by his attitude and lack of love for his wife. I am afraid communication would not have helped much in this case. He wanted revenge for his hurt ego and nothing was going to stop him. If this was a true life story, I would feel very sorry for Teri, her future is not bright. I would not have liked to have a guy like Michael as a co-worker or a neighbour, let alone as a friend and even less as a life partner. And yes, sad men like Michael do exist, fortunately they are not the majority :)

Ohio's stories often have a theme: Am I better with or without the cheating spouse? Sometimes, this question results in divorce without reconciliation, as in "The Surrogate." Other times, reconciliation takes place, as in "House of Cards." I don't find hate as the predominant emotion in his stories. Instead, love is the predominant emotion, and the question is whether there is enough love to get past the pain of betrayal. Here, if Joanna would not have discussed Michael's "performance time" after the discovery, would the story have the same result? Maybe, but I find it more likely that reconciliation would have taken place . . . which is tantamount to a poor rating in Loving Wives.

...in which the male hero gets a measure of retribution, but he still feels pathos and concern for his ex-wife.

She really didn't think it through. His 'therapy' didn't (according to the story premise) make him a cheater but, if he'd thought about doing that earlier to eliminate the pachyderm in the boudoir, things could have turned out a tad differently.

Still, she didn't think either and probably deserves the ending she got.

I couldn't help but feel sad for her though - she just grew up a little too late.

Excellent story Ohio - you get better.

Thanks for the read,

N

In my world, there have been no divorces, no PE, no surrogates of any kind, and I have been sexually satisfied with my wife of 40 years (on a cyclical basis & not without "everything" happening) but even though these characters are in territory unfamiliar to me, I was captivated. I say, job well done, ohio, and thank you very much for giving us a well-written and very entertaining tale.

Rhett

I think sojoman sums up my feelings perfectly. Joanna loved Michael BEFORE the surrogate stuff. Yes she cheated but Michael did some cheating on his own. He said he didn't want a divorce, giving hope to Joanna that their marriage would survive the heartbreak, all the while getting intimate with another woman.

Joanna was unfaithful and she looses it all. Michael was unfaithful and he gets it all. Just bullshit.

Teresa is having to go through the pain that Michael should have gone through with Joanna, and he never could. He is asking her to shove a bad image aside to accept him, when he couldn't do this for his wife. Michael is being hypocritical.

the story is well written and captivating. Well Done. I hope there is a forth chapter.

This is just a story after all, a good one at that, regardless of our own perceptions or moral values.

However, like with most stories, we could learn a few lessons.

First, a man (or a partner in general) that knows he is deficient in a given area, and PE is clearly a very hard subject to deal with, should have sought treatment a long time ago. He knew his problem from his school days and never bothered to deal with it. OK when you are single, very selfish when you are married. Michael was giving less than she deserves to his wife. Had he sought help and nothing could be done to help him overcome his problem, this would have been a different story. Obviously in this story Michael didn't care much about his wife. He was just happy to get his kick and then find a way to "compensate" for his own inadequacy. He stayed with his wife for that long because no one else would have accepted him with his condition, not because he loved her.

Second, bringing a dildo to substitute for a real cock is the behaviour of a wimp, not a real man. This is the attitude of a man that has given up on himself, lacks self-respect, and gives little consideration, if any, to his wife. Nothing wrong with dildos in a healthy relationship, here it is a sign of total disrespect for the wife, not a sign of love or caring.

Third, the wife came from a conservative background and had very little experience sexually. There was no effort on either part to deal with this in an intelligent manner. You just don't bring in a dildo, surprising your conservative partner, and expect it to solve your problems. Having a low IQ doesn't help but then that's why there are people out there that are supposed to provide the right assistance, like therapists, marriage counsellors, psychologists, etc.

Fourth, when you seek therapy, assuming that both parties are really serious about fixing their problems, do it together. Joanna's therapist was a poor one and never brought Michael in. Michael's therapist (yes she is a therapist not just a sex therapist) asked him to involve his wife, he refused. What Joanna did is wrong, she knew it and sought help but got a bad adviser. What Michael did for 12 years was totally disrespectful and uncaring, only when his ego got hurt did he get the jolt that led him to seek assistance, but not to make his marriage a better one. He cheated for much longer but felt no guilt. As another reader rightly pointed out, that would have been therapy if his wife was involved or at least knew about it, but she was excluded and what he did was cheating by any other definition.

Fifth, interesting to read the comments of all those "cheap street justice" dealers out there. Reverse the roles, imagine your wife allowing you only a two minutes max missionary style penetration and nothing else for 12 years. Would you be satisfied? Imagine now that she buys you a rubber pussy and asks you to use it to relieve yourself. Would you stray? It's so easy to blame others for your own deficiencies :)

In general, I feel sorry for women (or men for that matter) like Joanna, who have given the best part of their life to an uncaring and shallow partner like Michael. I also feel sorry for women like Teri, when the dust settles, she not only would have to live with the memory of Michael with her sister, but sooner or later she will hear Joanna's story, the one Michael is concealing from her, and she will find out how "loving and respectful" the man she is with now was.

Last comment, this is not man versus woman assessment. It is behaviour and attitude versus behaviour and attitude, regardless of gender. The same would have been true had the roles been reversed.

but I believe Joanna deserved a 2nd chance, and Michael didn't give her one. Hopefully Joanna would also find happiness. I happen to believe in 2nd, or even 3rd chances. I don't believe in being a doormat either, but Michael was no doormat. In the end, I was left with serious doubts about how much Michael truly loved Joanna. "How deep is or was your love, Michael?" Very good story, but left me with more empathy for Joanna's efforts than understanding for Michael's stand. Not much analysis, just feelings.

Joanne and Micheal got married and lived together for 9 years so Joanne knew what she was getting from Micheal. It was she would got dissatisfied with him all the while hiding her sexual unhappiness from him. So why would he get treatment? How many husbands would say "hey honey let's go to a sexual theapist" especially when she violently rejected the vibrator? Joanne failed to deal with the elephant in their bedroom his ED problem letting it grow out of control until she replaced him in her bed. Instead of talking about their problem together so they can get help she went out to satisify her desires. Good ole Trev given his position in the company would have never approached Joanne if she did not put out signals that she was available. So Micheal is the bad guy? Even when he did not know it was over he sought help for his problem to perhaps save his marriage. The author brilliantly moved Micheal (and the reader) through recliaming his life as victim to a new life taking care of his kids. So Micheal is the bad guy? His treatmenr was cheating? So living well after being bettrayed by your spouse is revenge? So be it. Thanks Ohio for an outstanding story! SleeplessinMD

Both made mistakes in this marriage, Joan's responsible is 2/3 and Mike's responsible is 1/3 and it ended with divorce.

Teri will get a good husband, who is good in the sex, likes the children (I hope they will have common children)and good provider.

BTW My opinion is: if Michael had not inherited, they would have reconciled.

YOU GOT THEM GOING YOU ARE THE BEST. The comments alone are worth rereading the story. I think you'll end up with about a hundred comments. What a story!!!!!!

Welcome to todays world,Michael just came out an extrordanary WINNER! In mose cases both would have been losers.

This third part was perhaps the best chapter of the three. I find it interesting that sympathy was generated for Joanna and quite a few readers are now feeling antipathy for Michael. I keep reading the allegation by many that Michael "cheated," and what's more, it was worse than Joanna's cheating.

I totally disagree with the above. Michael was completely devastated by Joanna's cheating and also by her repeated comparison between himself and Trevor, her illicit partner. One reader, for example, indicates that Michael could not have truly loved his wife because he did not seek help for his PE problem. I fail to perceive any logic in that point of view.

Even Joanna's perception was that Michael loved her. He worked hard to support his family, he gave her total affection and companionship, he never betrayed or cheated on her, and he tried his best to please her. She, on the other hand, discouraged him from his attempts to do a better job as a lover.

If providing a dildo to help satisfy his wife with an orgasm was so bad, or insulting, how come she secretly used it again and again (after indicating to Michael it was perverted)? According to the Hite Report, one of the most comprehensive studies of female sexuality in the past few decades, only 30% of women are able to reach orgasm from intercourse alone. So 70% of men are unable to satisfy their partners with intercourse -- Michael is thus in good company.

I wonder why people always expect that it is the man's fault, the man's problem, if his female partner fails to reach orgasm? I venture that it is their combined problem, just as infertility is a couple problem, as are erectile dysfunction, frigidity, and other sexual dysfunctions within the partnership. Why wouldn't it be Joanna's failure as well? She never said, "Michael, we need to see a sex therapist. I've been reading, and our problem (my inability to reach orgasm with intercourse) can often be helped with counseling, sex therapy, or the like."

She acted like Michael was doing something terrible when he went down on her, and could only permit it if her inhibitions were lowered with booze. Well, maybe Michael's prematurity was made significantly worse because Joanna gave the impression she really was not so fond of sex -- i.e., the old guilt about it being dirty, and the only proper and acceptable sex would be intercourse in the missionary position. So deep down (no pun intended), he just wanted to get it over with.

Of course, she could do anything and try everything with Trevor, because an affair is so naughty, one is already breaking the rules, and who cares what the lover (not the husband) thinks, anyway? Why have so few been willing to criticize Trevor for having sex with a married woman? It seems to me he knew just how to play Joanna, just like many predators do. And Joanna told her friends (who were single, by the way, and who were jealous of the loving relationship Michael provided Joanna) how much better Trevor fucked her (so now Joanna could brag about how good her sex was). The catty women were playing "one-ups-man-ship."

And I don't feel it's any more justifiable if a man cheats because his wife is frigid. He should divorce her if he feels their relationship is not enough for him; he can then seek better sex with someone else. Michael did this as part of therapy and technically speaking, it probably wasn't right and he should have waited until he was officially divorced. But the marriage was already dead, and had there not been children, he would have filed for divorce in a heartbeat instead of trying to stick it out. He chose not to give Joanna another chance -- too bad, but it was his decision, not hers, as he was the "cheated-on" spouse.

...some of the themes postulated could be derived from Meridith Chivers' Bonobo study. Thanks for throwing in ED to a plot that would be stale otherwise.The comments from cloacas,vulcan,onlythelonelylove and sojoman combined say as much as the story,actually. Amazing.

Isn't it the trait of a really good story that one could at any moment change the point of view from one character to the other and make us feel different about them? I think Ohio could easily redo this story from the point of view of Joanna and make us feel really bad about Michael, without changing anything in the plot. It just goes to prove that their characters are real – and that our sympathies will always be with the protagonist if he or she is real enough. Thank you for a fine story, Ohio.

It's pretty amazing to read that so many people think Michael is the bad guy and Joanna the victim, when Joanna is the one who cheated.

Why do people gloss over the fact, no, actually dismiss the fact that Joanna herself said Michael had been a great husband? Because it doesn't fit in their worldview, that men are the bad guys? Some readers portray him as a callous, uncaring, shallow, selfcentered bastard, pushing their own worldview of men onto the story.

Why do people gloss over the fact that instead of working with Michael with his PE (once she grew dissatisfied with their sexlife), Joanna instead cheated and had an affair? They're actually trying to justify Joanna's affair with Trevor! It's because Joanna was curious. It's because Joanna was dissatisfied in bed. If the reverse was the case, they'd be up in arms to destroy Michael. Oh wait, they already are!

Why do people so casually dismiss the destructiveness and pain cheating causes MEN as well? Women do not have a monopoly on feeling hurt after being cheated on.

Why do people completely hype up Michael's cheating? AFTER Joanna's affair, and he has practically already given up on the relationship?

Circumstances, people. Circumstances. Joanna cheated during their marriage, not letting Michael know that she was dissatisfied. She did it for herself, her own pleasure, at the cost of their marriage AND children (blowing off the zoo day, remember?).

Michael sought help for his PE problem, AFTER Joanna had cheated and he wanted out. The reason, to cure his PE. Circumstances and reasons are entirely different.

What people don't seem to understand is that Michael sought treatment to cure his PE, and not to save his marriage. Else he would've gone to a marriage counselor. I feel like I seem to keep repeating myself here. These were not the actions of a man wanting to save his marriage. At that point Michael desperately wanted out, he was "treading water", and for him, the unexpected inheritance was a godsend.

This is very clearly a case of "If she cheats, it's his fault, if he cheats, it's his fault".

It's pretty shocking to know that so many people still hold to such double standards.

The only thing you could add to this story is Joanna's side of things and how she felt after finding out Michael could get her there. But it was to late and he found a new wife.

Those of you who think Micheal is the bad guy are probley the same people that think a woman having a baby with another man is fine to. The bitch cheated and Mike moved on. Teri is mad because Mike slept with her sister. The reason doesnt make a difference. what she should look at, is it happened before he met her and move on. She has a past, like he does. And those of you that feel the he should have given he ex-wife a 2nd chance. why, she complained about his ED, he blasted off to fast for her, instead of talking to him and getting him help she fuck off. That was her 2nd chance. Most of the guys that say forgive her are cuckolds anyway. How many women would for give their husbands for cheating. read "No One Won" and that's a look at how women really are.

Could you imagine their reaction if the story was about her being multi orgasmic but having a loose vagina with her never lasting long enough for him to get off? "Well" he said, "I've heard from other husbands how tight their wives are and how they can squeeze so good. I just got curious." Would they be on his side? Would they say she should have done kegel exercises? I don't think so.

instead they engaged in this twisted fantasy that Michael in the bad guy.

ONCE JOANNA FOUND OUT HOW GOOD SEX COULD BE WHY DIDNT SHE TALK TO MICHAEL ABOUT HIS PE PROBELM?

None of you Morons have gotten around to answering that key point and being the fucking idiots you are you never will.

Saying " of course what Jonna did was wrong BUT...." is NOT answering that key point.

SUPPOSE the exact same story... BUT this time it is the WIFE who has the sexual problem. SUPPOSE the wife... I dunno... the wife as a 10 year old girl was sexually molested by an older kid on her block. Not raped just grabbed and felt up by say 14 year old boy.

The girl grows up meets guy they fall in love and get married.

During the course of the marriage the husband learns all about this and they Both agree/ discover that the wife's

molestation when she was 10 is the main reason she cant have vaginal orgasms.

She will not get Help for her sexual issues. She knows she has a secual problem... doesnt deny it... but she wont get help.

SOUND FAMILAR?...

in this Hypothetical is it OK for the husband to CHEAT and have great sex for months and months with another woman?

Accoring to Colacas SOJOMAN and ONLYTHELONELY... they could ONLY answer yes.

but those clowns would be the ones screaming the LOUDEST a bout how awful the Husband's actions and decsions were.

I think the comments say it all: People are really divided on how to view this. Was Michael a piece of shit, or was Joanna the complete tramp who deserved eternal damnation for her affair? I'll reserve such judgment for a Higher Authority, but I think you all missed out on the real problem--one that we all have in our marriages, no matter how much we bullshit ourselves and others. Communication.

Harry makes the point in his last comment that no one has yet explained why Joanna didn't go to Michael and beg him to seek treatment for his PE after she learned from Trevor how great long lasting sex could be. An excellent point, but let's play out that scenario. "Michael, I really need you to seek some treatment for PE. I've been reading in Cosmo that sex should last more than 90 seconds, and I'm just not satisfied any more with our sex life. Please, if you love me, do it." To which Michael responds by blowing his fucking brains out because now she's just like his previous two conquests who have attacked his very manhood. I mean, really folks, how the hell do you have that conversation without emotionally castrating Michael?

Conversely, Michael could've approached Joanna and said, "You know, you love oral when you're drunk. Why can't you loosen up a little and let's make it a regular part of the festivities? That way you're sure to maximize your pleasure every damned time." To which she responds, "Go to fucking hell, pervert. Between the dildo and oral sex, you're just fucking sick!"

Simply put, we all lie to each other in our marriages. They tell us we're just as handsome as the day we married despite our pot bellies, receding hairlines, and long gone muscle tone. We tell them they look great in that pantsuit and, no, it doesn't make their ass look big. The problems with this couple is that they were almost doomed from the beginning because their problems would be very difficult to raise with each other due to their respective upbringings, backgrounds, and the nature of Michael's physical condition.

Thus, while the affair may have put the final nail in the coffin, the marriage--at least sexually--had long been dying a long, slow death from both sides of the equation.

Really, just a very sad tale.

The reaction in this story is a classic case of the PUSSIFICATION of America. Time after time we will see in media stories about relationships ---whether it's some sort of story on the Internet or on Dr. Phil or on LIFETIME hannel or the OPRAH channel --- that "communication is the key."

I have to tell you that when MOST men read or see the stuff ....we all roll our eyes "say yes dear" and snicker. Some of us get really really angry too. The fact is that EVERY straight man in America knows that the saying " communication is the key" is a bunch of crap.

Its a code and a MASSIVE clutural lie being perpetrated in order to assure that any sexual problem or relationship problem between a man and woman is always the man's fault.

and ONLY his fault.

If she has sexual problems and cannot reach orgasm it's his fault.

If he or works to much and is too tired because he's working two jobs in the awful economy and cannotn perform well enough ... it HIS fault.

If he is sexually inexperienced and has a PE problem but the wife never says anything for 10 years... it HIS fault.

In chapter 1 Both Michael and Joanna we are told come from sexually conservative / repressive households.

Many can blame Michael for NOT at least trying to fix his PE issue. Yet for those 9 years of marriage the wife NEVER said anything. Not until she started talking with her friends. For 9 years she never said ANYTHING .

so WHY is SHE absolved of HER resposibility?

Instead because Michael is so inexperienced .....because he doesn't know any better.... because his wife doesn't say anything about his PE problem for 9 years ...

he doesn't take action.

The problem here is that in order to blame Michael's lack of focus on his PE problem as the main issue that ruined the marriage.... one has to make the argument that Michael was a functional straight sexual adult man.

He was not.

To blame Michael for this is to discount the reasons WHY Michael did not take action regarding his PE problem. But how can you then use Joanna's family and sexual background as a method to absolve her any responsibility?

Communication? yeah that is the key.... right.

I think your last comment missed a few points. No one--and certainly not me--said that the lack of communication was only the husband's fault. That's why they call it communication: It goes both ways; it takes two to tango. If it only went one way--if one spoke but the other refused to listen--then it's not communication.

Also, you say that Michael had no way to know his PE was an issue because in nine years of marriage Joanna never mentioned it. That's both right and wrong. He knew it was an issue with the first two girlfriends, and he knew she didn't orgasm during regular coitus. What he didn't know--and what Joanna failed to tell him--was that it was a problem in this, his marriage. And yes, for that, she's at fault.

And go back and read the whole story again. Both of them were unsatisfied with their sex life. Not just Joanna because of Michael's PE, but Michael was unsatisfied as well because of Joanna's conservative upbringing. And the one time he tried to spice things up, she freaked out on him. Why didn't she later tell him the dildo was being used and it was incredible? Probably because of her upbringing, which made it all but impossible for her to ever openly admit such a thing for fear of being deemed a harlot by her husband.

Sorry, but as a divorce lawyer I see this shit every day, five times a fucking day. Welcome to reality. It doesn't make it right or wrong, it just makes it the way it is. In a perfect world, she'd have never cheated. In a perfect world, he'd have sought help upon leaving high school to insure he was the greatest lover of all time. In a perfect world, she'd have cast aside her own inhibitions. But this isn't a perfect world, and both knew what to expect before the marriage was six months old. Simply put, neither of them did much more than go through the motions of trying to address their issues.

So they're both right and they're both wrong. He was still married--and allegedly still maybe trying to make a go of the marriage--when he started seeing a sexual surrogate. Fuck all the people who say that's different because it's for treatment. If she hadn't cheated and he'd have done that without telling her, would we still think him the paragon of virtue? Fuck no. So why does it make a difference where she has cheated, but he still wants to try to see if they can save the marriage?

Again, communication. And given the depth of Joanna's guilt and desire to save the marriage, I think he could've told her and she'd have gone along with it.

Think about it: The one time she openly communicated her appreciation at exactly what he was trying to achieve--the first time they had sex after he started seeing the surrogate and she praised his stamina--he exploded on her for appreciating the very thing he knew she wanted.

Talk about an utter inability to communicate with each other for fear of the other spouse going bonkers!

It is very simple to me. I think that when you take your vows for marriage, they should be followed. They aren't just a bunch of words. But Joanna made them null & void when she broke them by hooking up Trevor.

Michael tried his best to make it work with Joanna, but in the end just couldn't do it. While I do agree that communication is key to a successful marriage, make no mistake - in this case most of the blame for the failure in the relationship is on her.

While I usually prefer either outright revenge or reconciliation stories, I'm happy with this ending. Ohio, once again you have written a great story & I'm looking forward to your next tale.

He knew he was a poor lover. He told how his wife would constantly tell him it was good sex or okay that he came fast. Any man with any brains would not take that as an indication that he is getting the job done. Our hero knew he sucked the big one when it came to pleasing the ladies. The wife obviously knew it, too. Who is at fault? That is such a popular question as many of us assume one of the two must be the cause. They were in a sexual limbo of their own making. Either, or both, could have looked for some solutions withon the confines of their marriage. Neither one did. There is no good guy or bad guy here. There are just two people unable to face a problem they both know existed, but tried to ignore. That seldom solves the problem and this story demonstrated that. I am now in the process of searching for a surrogate that looks like Selma Hyake to solve my own problems before it is too late! Perhaps Ohio or the Chief Justice can give me some names.

Cloacas was right on the money. HIV as usual allows his misogynistic POV to avoid all logic. According to HIV, women are always at fault and deserve the ultimate punishment. Any suggestion that the male may have a hand in the problem is an example of the Pussification of America.

In this case, both husband and wife were sexually repressed and lacked the ability to communicate about sexual matters. This is not at all unusual. It happens all of the time. That's a major reason why people stray. They hook up with someone with whom they have no emotional connection and suddenly they can open up sexually. Their only connection is sex and there are no barriers to talking about and experimenting with sex. Again: it happens all the time.

In this case, the wife was so repressed she didn't even realize that she wasn't getting good sex until she heard the facts of life from her girlfriends. And she still couldn't open up with her husband about it. The result was disaster.

But anyone reading this with an open mind can see that there is 'blame' (if that is the word) to be distributed to both partners. What we have here is 'failure to communicate'.

Because of her sexually repressed upbringing and her stupidity about having an affair instead of talking to her husband, the wife will suffer for the rest of her life.

In this asshole version of America we now reside in, this is how it should be.

There is no place for compassion in Asshole America. Harry fits right in. And I'm too fucking old to move anywhere else.

My life sucks.

I wrote that the catch all phrase "COMMUNICATION IS THE KEY" is a social / culture code for men to get blamed for all the relationship problems.

That does not in ANYWAY mean men are NOT sometimes at fault.

They are.

That does not in ANYWAY mean that women are ONLY at fault.

Yet reading what I wtote You said ""HIV says women are always at fault."

You canot really be this fucking stupid. Not really.

in fact you blitherting idiot several other readers have specficially blamed Michael in either totality or Mostly.

In chpt 2 and 3 feedback... 7 or more rreaders have SPECFICALLY blamed Michael MORE than Joanna and all 7 cited COMMUNICATION as the reason why Joanna's long term afafir was either justified or not THAT bad.

I liked it okay. At least it was not a RAAC story.

As in "real" life things get complicated. I believe in "real" life had Joanna expressed a need for "better loving" and had done it in a non-castrating way, Mike would have sought help. Perhaps they could have gone together to a sexual therapist.

So, in that regard, they are both at fault for not seeking help. The primary fault, of course, lays with Joanna since she cheated on Mike. If her frustration was SO GREAT that she could not stand it any longer, she was OBLIGATED to ask her HUSBAND for help.

Perhaps a therapist would have moved her past her conservative history and helped her to appreciate oral sex and "toys".

As was noted in another comment MOST intercourse does not result in an orgasm for the female.

Guys, if your wife ALWAYS gets off by intercourse, then she's faking at least part of the time.

Working together they could and should have developed skills in manual, oral and "toy" stimulation that would satisfy her almost every time. Time, tenderness and care can make the difference.

I'm NOT a fan of RAAC. Once Joanna cheated she was done as far as I was concerned. I think the "right" answer is not always divorce, but sometimes it is the right answer. In this case Joanna seems to have truly realized her mistake. Mike did not realize his mistake. (His mistake was to have sex with a woman not his wife while he was married and living with the wife.)

It is a great story about a complex situation. The desire to simplify and assign guilt is like beating the proverbial....

By the way I would have enjoyed any of three different endings for this story!

One thing for sure about this author, No matter how many gyrations or plot turns or any literary license taken , the original couple in a cheating wife story is not getting back together. The only one who gets a happy ending is the poor schmuck who got cheated on. I guess there is supposed to be a lesson there to all wives contemplating an affair. Would it be that life were so simple.

I enjoyed reading this, always wondering how it would turn out.

I was rooting for him to get back with his wife. I think that people aren't perfect and someone who truly repents should be given a second chance. As for rebuilding trust, it isn't something that happens over night, it may take years. It takes a lot to make any marriage last and two people working together can do it.

...about my relationship, anyway. Are you fucking serious, you can't conceive of a relationship that is defined by HONEST COMMUNICATION? Just don't worry what the fuck others think(easy for me-I think others are ALL primitives)-or be so private(like my honey) -that you refuse to enter territory requiring you to lie, and it is possible.You are all organic pain collectors hurtling towards death so what is the problem? Just tell it.Are you so insecure you can't see that even your closest loved ones have feet of clay? So why be afraid to tell the truth? Gee whiz, once you start it becomes easier and easier.

I'm surprised at the take several people have, especially in assigning things to Michael. <br><br>

We begin with a happy marriage. Michael KNOWS he has a PE problem but is constantly reassured by his wife, who is truly happy with their sex life at that time. <br><br>

Then Joanna starts a series of events that cause her to become unhappy with her sex life, her husband, and her marriage. At NO time does she talk about any of it with her husband. She talks with friends who cause her to start thinking she is being cheated in the love department. She starts enjoying a dildo, that he husband was thoughtful enough to buy her, but completely hides her enjoyment from her husband. She starts building a fantasy sex life that excludes her husband. Finally she has a long affair. <br><br>

Now during all this Michael is clueless. It's not surprising. He has an embarrassing problem that he has tried to compensate for and has been constantly reassured by his wife that it is not an issue. Many people don't truly confront such a problem until they absolutely have to. <br><br>

So now Joanna's affair is exposed. What hateful, revengeful thing does Michael do? He decides he cannot continue a relationship with his wife (but cannot bear to leave the kids so they still live together -dumb). He is wounded beyond repair by Joanna's actions. Hateful? Revengeful? I don't see that. That's like blaming a gunshot victim for being in pain. Then he decides that his PE problem is the source of the trouble and needs to be dealt with. He seeks out medical help. He doesn't shove it in Joanna's face. Never does his thinking show he is doing it to get even. He is doing it to fix a bad problem. Even when he has success he isn't thinking "That shows you Joanna!. Instead he is just so happy that he can enjoy sex and bring pleasure to his partner. <br><br>

Even toward the end, when Joanna and Michael have sex (dumb), Michael is not doing it for revenge. Joanna instigates it. Michael's attitude seems to be "Why not?". He is pleased that he is now able to satisfy Joanna but there are no revengeful thoughts. When the divorce is final, Michael decides it's time for both of them to move on. Hate? Revenge? Where? <br><br>

Finally, Joanna desperately comes to see him. Does he yell at her? Fuck her and use her? No. Instead, he comforts her and brings her home. <br><br>

The only thing Michael does is not forgive her affair. Her transgressions were not a quick mindless fuck. It was a long, well thought out abandonment of her husband. He has every right to decide that is not something he can get over. That's not hate or revenge. What happens to Joanna is the natural consequences of her own behavior. As I have said before, I actually feel sorry for her. But her suffering is of her own making.

Those who see Michael as a vengeful character are bringing their own prejudices to the story. I suppose they can read it however they want to. But it's not the story that's written.

...but this site mostly populated by readers with long-term relationship issues. Like Harry's long-term issue with liberalism!

Jeez, Jasonnh has said it better and in less words than I ever could. I completely agree with him.

I've read many many stories here on Lit and this is one of the more unique story-lines I've come across. It is a very well-written account of PE and betrayal and love found again.

One observation though, is that I've not seen many, if any, examples of happily adjusted children getting along well with both divorced parents. It certainly isn't the case with our grandchildren, nor any other divorce situation in my, admittedly limited experience.

Like others, I've read Jasonhh's response to some criticisms of Michael and couldn't agree more with his analysis.

In my opinion, Ohio continues to solidify his status as one of the best authors on the website. Thanks Ohio!

RQ put it very well indeed. You appear to put me in the "he is worse than she is" category, being willing to forgive her trespasses as we fail to forgive his. My only claim on "blame" (consistently made through 3 chapters of this story) is that he is as morally wrong as she is. And as for your hypothetical: "in this Hypothetical is it OK for the husband to CHEAT and have great sex for months and months with another woman?" the answer is no. If you made the vows, stick to them until you get divorced or mutually renegotiate them to something you can both live with. I think that is blindingly obvious. Joanne broke her vows. I just disagree with those who think that gives Michael license to do the same. Discuss it, get a divorce, but to go off and lie (by omission) about it and then do the very thing he is upset with his wife for doing does not make Michael morally blameless.

One thing, in all of this story, I don't recall you actually commenting explicitly on whether Michael had the right to do what he did--i.e., get a surrogate to work out his problems. Well, does he, Harry? Or, can we hold him accountable for an ethical lapse of judgement along with Joanna, since he is still legally married?

As for your question about Joanne not asking about the PE, it is a good question. But it isn't the only one. One could ask, why didn't Michael talk to his wife about his PE when he knows that she isn't happy anymore (e.g., not reassuring him)? And I think RQ answered that well, though I feel a little more optimistic that it might have worked out had they tried--but we will never know.

Further: "The problem here is that in order to blame Michael's lack of focus on his PE problem as the main issue that ruined the marriage.... one has to make the argument that Michael was a functional straight sexual adult man. He was not."

So, change your focus to "one has to make the argument that Joanne was a functional straight sexual adult woman. She was not,"" and we see the shape of RQ's communication critique.

The point I wish to make is that emotions are complex. Michael does not hate Joanne with burning intensity, he doesn't love her with an all consuming passion. But--he is ambivalent about her--he both cares about her and loathes her. And this is very clear in the last exchange of Chapter 2 of this story, in which he clearly struggles with wanting to protect her feelings and also wanting to hurt her by making her realize what she has lost. Michael has a nice little box to put the" Joanne emotions" in. Unpack at your own risk..

As for revenge--yes. I just quote the last paragraph of Chapter 2:

"They talked about it some more. More than Michael realized, this would be about revenge--reminding Joanna of what she was losing. At least that's how Elizabeth saw it. But that wasn't a reason not to do it, if he wanted to. She couldn't see how it would be bad for Michael, and he was her patient. It might make Joanna feel a lot worse--but that was for Joanna to deal with."

I grant the : "As Elizabeth saw it..." isn't Michael's words, but as we have seen, Michael isn't the most self-aware tool in the shed. Oh, and as we saw in Chapter 3, it certainly did make Joanne feel worse...

Michael is not unaware of his own feelings. Most of the time when he is missing things it is because Joanna has deliberately excluded him. He knows his PE could be a problem. He asks his wife about it. He also uses techniques in his lovemaking to work around it. His wife says, and her thoughts at the time show she is happy. <br><br>

At the end of chapter 2 he says:

"What I mostly feel is, I don't know, melancholy I guess--wistful. I remember the good parts of our marriage, all the stuff we did together, as a couple and with the kids. Even sex, or the good parts of it." This is not a guy seeking revenge. <br><br>

He also says:

"And, I guess--I see how unhappy Joanna is. That doesn't exactly make me happy, but ... at least it makes me feel like I'm not the only one whose life she ruined. She ruined her own, and it's killing her." Michael has been seriously hurt. He wants Joanna to recognize (her therapist meetings show she is very ignorant of the effect of her actions) the pain she has inflicted. And because of her OWN ACTIONS he feels she finally is. BUT he says that is not exactly making him happy. Wow! That's hate for you. <br><br>

About having sex with Joanna he says:

"But, I don't know--she's still a very sexy woman. It's kind of flattering that she wants to do it, and to tell the truth a part of me wants to show her what I can do, really knock her socks off." Sounds like a guy trying to inflict pain to me. Not! At most he wants to show off a bit. But he expects Joanna to enjoy the result. <br><br>

Finally in talking about telling Joanna about his therapy he says:

"Plus, I know that if I told her now, if she knew I'd overcome my PE once and for all, she'd probably feel even worse about what she did. About losing me. And believe it or not, I don't want to do that to her. I don't want to hurt her any further." The hate and desire for revenge literally leaps off the page. So far off that you can't even sense it is there. Maybe because it really isn't. <br><br>

The parts you quote from Elizabeth is HER speculation (as you also note) as to how Joanna might perceive the improved sex. But Michael's statements and various thoughts he has show clearly that he has NO intention to harm. Remember also that having sex is NOT his idea. Joanna pushes to do it. He struggles to figure out if it would be OK. That's why he is talking to Elizabeth about it. Further, Joanna LOVES it. She raves about it. The cruel SOB is torturing her with great sex. Michael gave her the caveat, just sex not a reconciliation, and she blew right by it. Does she miss the sex in the end? Yes. But there are a lot of other things about Michael that she misses also. Michael has worked to improve himself. If she had given him the chance she could have worked with him. SHE is the one that cut him out of her life. Every step of the way it is Joanna's own actions that cause her pain. Michael doesn't try to set her up or entrap her or punish her. He justs wants to be away from someone who has caused him grievous pain. That's not hate or revenge. He's just accepting the hard reality of her betrayal and taking the steps he must for his own happiness. <br><br>

Anything bad that happens to Joanna is at her own hands.

Onlythelonelylove, you seem to be contradicting yourself a lot. I won't copy Jason's post, but I'd like to add some things.

In your title you say Hate? Revenge? Yes, but at the same time there is no mention of a point in the story where Michael does something to Joanna out of hate, or revenge.

"and also wanting to hurt her by making her realize what she has lost."

This is a misdirection. It is not what she has lost, but what she has thrown away. Is it really a desire to hurt when Michael wants to show Joanna a "what could have been" but is not, because of the consequences of her own actions? Again, like jason said, Joanna did this to herself, and is suffering the consequences of her own actions. The pain she is feeling is guilt, not the pain of someone doing something malicious to her.

As for the revenge, the sex was something Joanna wanted, not Michael. Like you yourself say, it's the opinion and thoughts of another person, not Michael himself. That is not indicative of how Michael feels or thinks.

This is a copy/paste of a part in chapter 2:

"Oh my God, he must think I went out and found myself a better lover because he wasn't good enough!"

Agnes waited a minute for Joanna's crying to subside. Then she said, quietly, "well, would he be wrong in thinking that? Isn't that exactly what you did?"

How long has it taken Joanna to realize this? She is not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.

And for the pain Joanna feels after their last lovemaking, again, that is guilt. Don't try to blame Michael for something he did not do.

Michael was a selfish bastard. He couldn't satisfy his wife . In fact he cared nothing for her feelings. He was always inadequate but his patient wif was just that! Only when she sEks some release elsewhere does he decide to do something about his problem.he is shallow and not man enough. But he ends up happy! A fact of life!!!

Anon, you should read the story.

An interesting constant here at LW is that the better the story the more ridiculous the comments section. Poorly written stories often inspire interesting comments about the writing and even what might occasionally be called constructive suggestions although certainly always with a fair dose of stupidity mixed in. But truly well written stories with three dimensional characters complex enough that, dare I say it, BOTH partners may have had a hand in the marriage failing, inevitably inspire unbelievably moronic comments about how I hate this husband or how I hate this wife. For the record, Michael, who had he done something sooner probably could have saved his marriage, was very hurt by the end of this marriage, but because the story was written from his point of view we get to see him recover from the damage. His wife was of course also hurt by their failure. Though, I think it is fair to say, that though he did occasionally lash out, there is also a lot of evidence in the story that Michael also did his best not to hurt her. And finally concerning his wife, it's important to remember that she also could have saved the marriage by seeking help and counseling during the marriage rather than later. And while she is at the end of the story in a lot of pain, she is also in therapy and taking steps to become a better person and seems to have learned important things about herself and will I'm sure go on to have as happy a life as any imaginary woman can have.

That's called "polarization", I believe.

The stronger and more extreme the comments, the stronger and more extreme the reactions.

This story reminds me quite a lot of DanielQSteele1’s epic series ‘When We Were Married’ which recently came to such an unsatisfactory halt. In that work, I found the zeppelin-breasted Debbie neither attractive nor sympathetic as a character. But when she sees her ex-husband looking slimmer and muscular, with a cool, sexy, shaved head and all-black ensemble, and wonders with some bitterness why he couldn’t have made the same effort when they were married, you have to admit: she’s got a point.

Similarly, in this story, Michael’s new wife will have the benefit of his sexual treatment and newly acquired sexual sophistication, enjoying a blissful and fulfilling sex-life which were denied to his first wife. She, too, would have grounds to feel aggrieved, in my opinion.

Now, in both the above cases it was the wife who initially strayed, and was, in the eyes of many, the sole reason for the break-up of their marriages. But what if the roles had been reversed? If it had been the wife who let her appearance go, who became fat and unattractive, who was always too tired to play, who gave her husband no sexual satisfaction? Would all those people who rejoice in Joanna’s misery be equally condemnatory of the husband if he looked elsewhere for physical release?

In general with the cheating wife scenario I am firmly on the side of no reconciliation, because I know I could never bring myself to forget and forgive in those circumstances. However, these two stories are not as black and white as most of the contributions to ‘Loving Wives’, which is a tribute to the imagination and skill of the author. However, I think Ohio also has a strong bias in favor of the repellent Michael, so I don’t suppose Joanna has much left to look forward to in her life except more author-generated suffering. So I would like to propose a plot-line for Chapter 4. I wish I had the ability to write it myself, but it will have to remain an outline:

Michael and Teresa grow closer together, and at first everything is fine. But one or two elements in Michael’s life combine to put him under stress – problems at work, say, or a minor health matter which stops him sleeping. So one time he’s making love to Teri and his PE recurs. Well, it can happen to anyone from time to time, right? But Michael’s self-confidence and control is still rather fragile, and he has a relapse into his former condition. But Teri won’t let him go back to the clinic because she can’t bear the thought of his being intimate with her sister. They talk, they argue, it makes Michael’s problem worse. Teri seems to have the capacity to be a little unstable herself, viz her over-reaction to finding out who Michael’s sex-therapist was. Teri shows no sympathy, and in the end breaks off their relationship. Meanwhile Michael starts to make comparisons with Her attitude and Joanna’s, who put up with his selfish and unsatisfying performance for years and years. He starts to appreciate her point of view and becomes more understanding of her affair. He also remembers the heartfelt apologies and pleas to be allowed to try again.

So he approaches Joanna with a view to attempting a reconciliation. What happens then? Do they live happily ever after? My preferred ending would be for Michael to discover that in the meantime Joanna has met someone who isn’t such a selfish, self-righteous prick, and that she starts a new life with him, leaving Michael free to enjoy sex with the only person he has ever truly loved – himself.

Looks for all the world to me like you see things in black and white regarding Michael.

I am tired to say: Michael likes very much his children and this is prior for him. Teresa became the true candidate for newer wife, because Michael turned out she liked very much Micheal's children and she became like a good friend to his children. I think, the turning point was in this story, when Michael inherited a much summ and he could find a house to live near to his children. This was the main turning point, because Joanna lost his hope for reconcilation soon! Without his aunt's money Michael would have remained with his wife for his children and she would have had a chance to stay with husband.

BTW I would write in a hypotetical 4th chapter, that Teresa and Michael gather money to enlarge the house and after this (3years) they try 2 newer common children. Joanna finds a divorced man, whose exwife moved in a far another state with his children and they also try a common children and she becomes wiser wife for the future.

BTW Ohio wrote one of the best reconcilation story: "Visiting Richard Gronier". In this story also for the husband the prior his children. One of his daughter got leuchemia and he must save his marriage, because a divorce would have killed his daughter. It is very interesting story.

Excellent story! You've done everything right: Kept us hanging and waiting for the other shoe to drop, made us smile, made us sad, made us like, then dislike your characters. It's like real life, and that is the best...

I for one hope you finish this great story!! Can't believe all the negative feedback to a GREAT FUCK STORY. Keep it up! I'll read'em. Thanks!

Yes, I suppose I do see things in black and white regarding Michael, but I speak as I find. I approached the story with an open mind, as I’m sure you did. But over the course of the three chapters I found myself sympathising far more with the cheating wife, which is a first for me, as I loathe the idea of adultery and usually exult in the eventual triumph of the cuckolded husband in finding a new life and gaining the traditional best revenge of living well, which is the usual LV outcome. I suppose this is an indirect compliment to the author, who has conceived of a situation outside the normal clichés, which has created quite a stir on this site. It’s like a really good film – you can’t put it aside, it stays with you for days afterwards, continually entering your thoughts at odd times and making you think.

To return to my dislike of the Michael character: there are always two sides to any relationship, but in his case I just couldn’t find any redeeming features. If you go back and reread the first chapter you’ll be reminded that Michael had had two sexual partners before he married Joanna, the second of whom had made it clear to him that he wasn’t any good in bed and didn’t please her. By his own admission his performance hadn’t improved over the years, so he ought to have been aware that he wasn’t doing much for his wife either. Joanna, on the other hand, was a virgin when she met him, and knew little about sex, so she would not at first have known how inadequate her husband was in this respect. Michael, however, implies to the therapist that over the years she’s read stuff or talked to her girlfriends, and is now no longer so quick to reassure him that it doesn’t matter that she never has an orgasm when they make love. In fact recently ‘she’s acted more like, yeah, it’s a problem and she doesn’t like it.’

Even this, however, was not enough to make Michael want to act. As far as he was concerned, his wife could have gone to her grave without ever experiencing an orgasm during the act of love. Wouldn’t that have been a personal tragedy? How would you like that fate for yourself? Buying her a vibrator is hardly an adequate substitute! He on the other hand gets off every time they have sex. Here’s an example of how incredibly selfish he is. Talking to Elisabeth about the change in his wife as she gradually learns that most men can please their wives for more than 2 or 3 minutes he says: ‘ I just know that she became much more aware that most guys could, uh, go longer--and I could tell it disappointed her. She didn't say anything harsh, but she didn't reassure me either.’ He criticises Joanna for being disappointed and not reassuring him, rather than accepting his own responsibility to attempt a cure. He says: ‘I always used to love sex with her--except for my problem.’ No thought for her lack of fulfilment. Isn’t love about giving, not just taking?

But after 9(?) years of marriage in which he was quite happy with the one-sided sexual relationship, it only took him 3 weeks to arrange an appointment with a sex therapist with a view to solving his PE problem. Why was it important now and not for the previous 9 years? Whatever his motive was, I cannot think it a laudable one. And during the successful course of his treatment he never expresses any regret that he didn’t go to therapy sooner, which would in all probability have preserved his marriage.

Sorry to go on at such length. Fascinating topic, though.

You created three complex characters, each faced with difficult decisions, and developed each character, vesting in each of them very human traits. Then we got to see each of them face their humanness. I developed fondness for all three, and would have celebrated either of the two most obvious outcomes.

Well done. Please write more.

D

"it only took him 3 weeks to arrange an appointment with a sex therapist with a view to solving his PE problem. Why was it important now and not for the previous 9 years?"

I think you could easily answer that yourself. It's the one thing that kickstarted this story. Joanna's affair.

For the nine years of marriage Joanna told him it was OK. And then it wasn't. How did Michael discover that it wasn't OK for Joanna anymore? Her affair. She cheated on Michael so she could experience longer sex. She never told him, didn't get upset, nothing. It was like not minding the toiletseat being up one day, and taking a baseball bat to his knees for doing so the next day.

It was AFTER Joanna's betrayal, that Michael realized that if the love of his life, his wife of 9 years, could cheat on him because of his PE, that his PE was a big fucking problem.

Michael's motive. Is curing his PE done for selfish reasons as everybody thinks? Who would benefit the most?

Personally, I see two reasons on why he'd cure his PE.

To not feel like a lesser man, a cuckold, and get his selfconfidence/esteem back (would that be a bad reason?).

Or, it's for any future lover, that they'd enjoy the sex with him? If he truly were a selfish bastard, why would he care if the woman he's with gets her rocks off?

Redbeak, if you think that his motive cannot be a laudable one, which NON laudable ones can you give?

Is he doing it to get back at Joanna? He doesn't want to sleep with Joanna after her cheating. She does. If he doesn't sleep with her, he can't get his revenge, so that would be out.

Is he doing it to restore his "hurt ego/male pride"? I think people are confusing a person's feelings with ego and/or pride. (I wonder what people would say if the roles had been reversed. Would people say about Joanna that it's her hurt ego/female pride?)

If it had been Michael who had cheated on Joanna, and she decides on a radical makeover into a devastating beauty, would that be out of revenge to rub it in, or an attempt to restore her selfworth, that she IS beautiful and not deserving of being cheated on? Maybe even both?

Moreover, what if she decides on the makeover, and never lets Michael see her (as in the original story Michael had not wanted to have sex with Joanna and she would not have found out his newfound stamina if she hadn't wanted to have sex with him), would that be out of revenge? Or, would that have been solely for herself, and thus, as people say "her own selfish needs"?

It seems to me that whatever he does, people blame him. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

One specific case that had been mentioned is Michael sleeping with Joanna, and her discovery that his PE is cured.

Some say he did it out of revenge, and to cause her pain.

He never wanted to sleep with Joanna after her cheating. She did. So great sex (something Joanna cheated to have) is revenge? The pain she feels is not from the sex, it's from her own guilt at cheating. At what she has thrown away. Guilt is by nature, selfinflicted.

What if he had turned her down instead? People would immediately say he's a bastard, for being a holier-than-thou I'm-too-good-for-you scumbag, when his poor little wife is practically begging him for sex. They would say his revenge is rejecting her, and causing her pain that way.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Apparently a LOT of people here think that cheating is allowed if the sex is bad. I wonder if that also counts when it's bad for the guy. Would that justify cheating on his part? If he can't get his rocks off, he's justified in finding it somewhere else? Or is this "cheating is OK" tied to gender?

Yes, they both did wrong. Neither of them communicated well. It's not black and white.

What I can't and won't accept is people entirely blaming Michael for Joanna's cheating.

This was a masterpiece, both erotic, and well conceived in every aspect. You should seriously consider writing as a profession.

I still agree woth Cloacus, HDK, and RedBeak and others. Michael went from sexual wimp, to cheater, and then to 1st class hypocrite. When he could finally take care of his loving wife after a year of fucking other women, he dumped her and her sexual inhibitions and found another mental case.

What a HIV classic.

Way to keep us guessing Ohio. You got everybody involved

Marina's sister - I loved it - and a whole new set of pains and challenges -

For the Michael is self crowd - why did he tell Teri the truth then rather than make everyone keep silent - no reason at all except the desire to be fair open and honest with hsi new love. He never lost site of his first priority - the kids - over all else they came first - NOT selfish.

Did he decide once cuckolded by his wife and having his face pushed on the shit of his PE to deal with it now that is was clearly an issue for every one in his life - yes - finally - even if a bit late.

Painfully little sympathy for Joanne - I can often find rationale for the couple getting back together - even in this story BUT that does not mean they should or have to (especially since I was not the writer and all LOL) But they did not and almost certainly were not for the entire story, no one should have been surprised he could get past her betrayal - he got past his he contributed to it by fixing himself - of course he was the only person who could fix HIM.

Was he cheating with Marina - a very interesting question - simple answer NO it was medically sanctioned treatment for recognized medical problems. In a "normal" marriage SHOULD he have at least told his wife about his treatment plan - almost certainly. So when one person violates the conditions of an agreement - does the agreement still exist. Woo no simple answers there contract law experts make billions every year fighting both side of that argument. IMHO if I make a promise it is as much a matter of principle to me to follow through on it as it is an expectation the other person will as well, my integrity is tied to me doing what I said I would irrespective e of what the other person does - that led to over a decade of celibacy for me while my wife was acting the whore _ I did not know that but there it is - too much honor leads to trust with no respect and stupid choices -

But I look in the mirror and see an honorable man with integrity - and a lot of years of horniness rofl.

Mousse9 i agree with u. he didn't do anything bad. and his wife is only wanted him back because he is now good in bed and she is not happy with any other person.

i kind of don't happy with ending teri have problems. i think he should not have to ask her to marry him that soon because she is not happy with him sleep with her sister. he should first clear this problem then ask her if she is ok with him and her sister. or this marriage will also end like his first marriage

Michael is just another clueless dumbass. With the availability of all the information on sex he should have realized how much he was short- changing his wife. A real man always make sure his mate gets her rocks off. And the more times the merrier. Thank goodness I married a multi-orgasmic women. We been married 35 years and making her come is still my number one priority.

All I would ask is if you would do an epilogue. You did a great job,but I would love to see how they live the rest of their lives. I think you would agree.

There truly would be closure. Thank you

I was going to respond to some of the comments blaming Michael but Mousse9 beat me to it.

Michael had some shortcomings that his wife originally had NO problem with. When she did, rather than working with her husband to fix it, she cheated.

Meanwhile, Joanna had her own shortcomings that were preventing them from having a full love life. Michael tried to work with her and she treated him like he was a pervert and then made use of the toy he provided behind his back. Despite his disappointment, Michael did not even think about cheating.

Here's a question to consider. If a husband physically beats his wife and sends her to the hospital, is the wife a "hater" when she decides she cannot be with her husband any more because of the ongoing pain and fear for more pain in the future? News flash, people are not required to forgive. You have to look inside yourself and decide if you can. Based on the situation and the kind of person you are, forgiveness may not be possible. That doesn't mean you hate, it means you will no longer continue a relationship.

In addition, emotional pain can be even more devastating than physical damage. Someone could break my arm and I could be completely healed physically in a few months. But emotional pain is elusive to uncover and there is no precise method to treat it. So Joanna's betrayal and undermining Michael's sense of coincidence is just as damaging as a physical assault and even harder to recover from. It seems clear that Michael doesn't hate Joanna at the end, nor can he love her any longer, a realistic outcome. He took NO revenge, he just divorced her. Where is the hate? Angry about her cheating, justifiably yes. Hate, no.

If Joanna is miserable, it is because of her own actions. As I said before, I feel sorry for her. Sometimes the cost of our actions can be painful. Hopefully we learn to behave differently so to avoid the pain in the future.

Most enjoyable and well worth the highest ranking,as is the norm for this Author.

Thank you Ohio.

You can call it what you want ut in the end it was legalized prostitution. She cheats once and gets dumped. It somehow doesn't seem fair....I suppose if he had sought out the hooker AFTER a divorce...

Really, it wasn't. It's just that Michael did to Johanna what she did to him, and no one noticed? Johanna had 6-8 times vs. Michael's well over a hundred, and secrets abound!

Otherwise, it might have been a 5.

I like most of your stories, but you dropped the ball on this one.

ohio writes a darn good story, just because we don't always like the way it goes doesn't change the fact she/he writes very well, nice work

The only problem I see, the only way I see it as cheating, about using the sex therapist is that he kept the info from Joanna. Before some of you lambast my position answer this first: Does taking daily injections of alergy medication (remember some alergy medications are ingredients in making Meth) qualify someone as a 'druggie'? It is about context and intent isn't it?

To those that are concerned about Michael being a heel since he 'knew of his problem but didn't solve it until 3 weeks after Joanna's affair you are wrong. I submit that Joanne knew of and accepted the problem for most of their marriage. Up to that point, as she had shown acceptance of the situation, why did he have to fix it? Some of you put him in a damned if he solves it and damned if he doesn't situation since you would be equally unhappy with his 'having extra-marital sex with a therapist'. Once he became aware of the affair he became aware that the rules had now changed and that Joanna was no longer accepting the PE. This is ALL on Joanna. Instead of getting some strange she should have confronted the issue with her husband and worked WITH him to find a solution. All he did was try to react to the changing rules (situation) as quickly as he could. Her solution was totally unacceptable.

The last point I'd like to make is that her having the first tryst was an anger reaction to something happening at home (that Michael had no control over). How could Michael ever trust her again after that knowing that her response to being agry with him was to go out and get f*****d by someone else. He could never, ever have another meaningful conversation with her again knowing that if she was still angry after the conversation she would go out and shack up with someone else in revenge.

For Michael, good riddance of Joanne and good luck in his future without her.

Ohio, you're the man. This was a very thought provoking story that has obviously stirred some debate. Whether I agree with where you take your characters or not I do like to be challenged on my perceptions and to analyze them from other directions when shown. Kudo's to you and your work and I hope to continue reading it for years to come.