All Comments on 'Making an Honest Woman Ch. 01'

Expressing political view thru characters is fine as long as it contributes to the characters development, but some authors dwell on it too much and then it greatly detracts from the story. I am not sure how you can ever get past trust issues you have raised, having "been there" it was not a "one off" it was calculated I could never get over it and do not see how any person could. If it were a one time slip maybe. I have experienced this type of betrayal from the child's point of view and as the husband, I was never able to forgive my dad thus we were estranged until he passed away. As for my wife I divorced her and remarried going on 28 years now. Your story is a good read and look forward to chapter two.

I like the nuanced characters. Your main character/narrator seems be more level-headed than the usual vengeance-focused boy-man, and Ellen seems genuinely remorseful if still untrustworthy. I noticed a couple people complaining about the professor's political views. (I wonder if they would complain so much about a character complaining about Obama.) In general, politics are distracting, but I agree with your character and so do many of my most conservative friends. <g>

I await your next installment.

Story flows well, characters well developed. Why not have political commentary (even brief) if it fills out the character, which that one did. Please continue.

Bitch has a six month affair and husband gets mad at first then except it and try to work it out I call bullshit.

Would kick this bitch to the curb after all she got away with for six months. This spinless wimp would constantly be looking over his shoulder for the next time. Once a living cheat always a living cheat. If it was me I'd call up the bastered wife and tell her what's been going on then I'd divorce the bitch. This story is not realistic why after his little meltdown at the beginning would he tell her he loved her at the end. The fact is she would rather fuck anyone but him otherwise she wouldn't have had the affair.

"Any man with a backbone Would kick this bitch to the curb" Anonymouse comment, and typical of several.

It's always a good first move to simply abandon the marriage at the first whiff of trouble. The past many years of love and devotion mean nothing. The effect on the children will be insignificant. Just get out as quickly as you can.

Lue

Almost as much fun as the story itself. To summarize, everyone loves the focus of the story which is of a wife having an affair and wrecking a family. But a few sentences about the politics of a fictional character is twisting people into knots. Literally have been laughing out loud.

we have to conclude this must be a story that is thoughtful, nuanced, realistic and intelligently written.

Which it is, and making for as good read.

It'll be interesting to see how it develops.

And now you're experiencing the joy of the Loving Wives section and the mad, messy, rough and very human commentary. Hope you're enjoying the ride and that we see the next chapter soon.

It wasn't used hear (yet!), but one that always bugs me (actually, they all do!), is the "I wanted to feel attractive!" I always say, "Why?" You have a husband/wife, who are you trying to attract? Why are you trying to attract somebody other than your mate?

How many commenters only complain about political views of a fictional character when they disagree with those views? I'll wait until more is posted before reading. The comments are fun, as they tend to be in the LW area.

Yourself, SB.

It's to have an attractive vision of yourself.

It's a vision that you've lost somewhere along the way.

Lue

You really think the politics of a college Proffessor are pertinent? These Professors are training our youth to embrace Communism, Antifa Fascism, Black Lives Matters Anarchy, etc;

Good story, leave the hate for half the country out.

First off, you don't need an editor. The pace, flow, balance, voicing...everything about this story is top-notch. Congratulations, and thank you for posting it.

Should have had the husband call out to Megan who was waiting in the hallway. Be for he told her what he knew to give her a chance to come clean.

When I was younger my parents always new when I was not telling the truth. I would keep the lie up no matter what. One time I was dating an older guy and said I was going to spend the night at my friend's but some how they knew each time I tried to continue the lie the would say ok let's talk to her parent the I'd try another tac I findely ended have to tell the truth.

So if this guy really wanted the truth to come from her all he'd have to do is have Megan there to refute her claims of their get together giving her chance to come clean.

Also it was clear that she had no respect for him by saying when I get back I expect an appoligie. At that point she should have known that he knew of the affair. Every thing after was to nice. Two people even if they're smart would be angery the fact the older girl knew and never attempted to tell her dad was just plain sad. When I was twenty I went to a married friend house we we're friend since grade school a man answered the door and it was not my friend he was in his underwear. I said sorry wrong house and went to my car. I called my friend he was at his mom's house fixing her breaks I told him his wife was having an affair and the guy was still here. He called me a lier

I said I was right outside his house his parents lived just four houses down. By giving the evidence without a doubt he could not deny the facts. Unfortunately I lost a good friend that day it took year for us to talk again because I forced my beliefs on him. She was cheating on him not only with the guy but also with my best friend Wendy.

Luedon,

Thanks for the sniping at the ‘anonymice’, which seems to be the thing that gives you pleasure here. By taking the commentor’s words out of context, you minimize his/her actual point.

The full thought was “Any man with a backbone [w]ould kick this bitch to the curb after all she got away with for six months. This spin[e]less wimp would constantly be looking over his shoulder for the next time.”

The rest was his opinion on what he/she would do and a relatively logical conclusion due to her, as you prefer to call it, wandering.

As to your snark, let’s see:

Is it “abandoning the marriage” when your partner has already abandoned it by breaking the vows/abrogating the contract between them? And in this case, when it has not been a one time thing but an extended affair?

“The first whiff of trouble?” Really? An affair requires certain things in order to succeed. Trust, opportunity and lies – whether outright or of omission.

If we just deal with the first leg of the stool, trust, once broken, it is perhaps the hardest thing to repair. Not impossible, but far from a guaranteed thing. And the longer the deception, the harder it is to fix. A one time thing, by all means figure out the why and try and fix it. Might not be able to get past it, but try. A week? That implies more than a lapse in judgment. A month? That requires planning, forethought and relegating the partner to less than in the relationship. Hard to see how they can truly respect you at that point. Six months? Yeah, we are at no respect on some level by now, if only because they have deceived the partner for so long that they have to feel superior at that point. How can trust be restored at that point? No, that marriage is dead. Some sort of relationship or a renewed marriage might be possible, but the odds are very low.

Opportunity. Making time to see the lover, arranging scenarios for getting together, thinking about how to make it work. That is time taken away from the marriage. Not time from work or play, since it is solely for one partner’s sexual indulgence. Something that is usually solely reserved for their marital partner. (I know that some marriages have alternative arrangements, but if that were the case, it would be out in the open, and therefore not taking time away from the marriage and certainly not breaking trust). One need not be a prude to recognize that betrayal comes from deception rather than openness.

Lies. This one is the primary reason that the relationship is likely doomed. Months of deception, of looking into the eyes of the partner and concealing things. Lying overtly or by omission of details. How can one believe anything from that person subsequently? This is why people suggest ending things. What kind of life will it be with that doubt, that feeling of wanting to verify things? Some get past it (or so they say), but I have yet to observe a couple that survived infidelity that was ever as affectionate or as strong as before the event(s).

The years of love, you say? Was it love that made her sleep with someone outside the marriage? Devotion to whom? Not the husband in this particular story. If there were years of love, why cheat? And if not, why stay married? See, this is very binary issue. Love means fidelity. Infidelity means…I am sure you can follow that to its logical conclusion.

And children, it there are any, well, where was the thought of them the first time that she cheated? The second? The hundredth? Please, the first cut, that deepest one, was hers. If he chooses to repair things by amputation, so be it. He did not cause the disease, it is his task to deal with it. No longer her choice to make. She made it when she began the affair and risked her children’s happiness and future.

Now back to the usual rancor…

X2

When I read this story (and I checked it many times) I swore I read six weeks yet some people keep saying six months. Come on people go back and read before you write a comment.

The obsessiveness in the comments, on the very few lines of political referencing, has writers salivating at at how to get a story attention. If I was a cynic, I'd applaud a first-time author for definitely tripping that switch.

Since I don't wan't to be one, I'll take the obvious snarky path. Literotica is a combination of literature and erotica. And (full sarcasm in effect), no literature that has dealt with political issues has ever stood the test of time.

A lot of the points you make are things I agree are quite valid.

There is no doubt that a wife or husband who secretly commits adultery in the clear expectation that his or her spouse will be hurt by the infidelity has done wrong.

It is also obvious that the recognised wrongness of that infidelity will lead the wrongdoer to lie. Then, when the lie is exposed, the hurt will be compounded by the feeling of never being able to believe the liar again.

Where I think we differ is in what value we put on what will be lost in the marriage and what effort should be put into recovering the betrayed love and trust. I see the initiative being in the hands of the wronged partner to decide whether it is worth the effort to try to retrieve what already has been lost, and to avoid what will be further lost by dissolution of the marriage.

It's complicated.

Lue

No, she wasn't trying to attract herself, she wanted reassurance that she was attractive to other MEN. I repeat my question - what does it matter? If no other man in the world is attracted to her, or if EVERY other man in the world is attracted to her, how does that change her life? The man she's married to, the man she supposedly loves is attracted to her. Why isn't that enough?

"These Professors are training our youth to embrace Communism, Antifa Fascism, Black Lives Matters Anarchy, etc;"

Nah. Kids embrace Communism and AntiFa because their parents aren't allowed to beat the stupid out of them anymore. The little brats "rebel" and join a terrorist group or the idiots that think that dirty hippy, Marx, wasn't just talking out of his ass for a paycheck so he and Engels could make another opium run.

As the number of comments indicates, you've written a first chapter that has hooked a lot of readers, including me. We'll be all be waiting for the rest, and hoping that it lives up to what you've given us so far.

Thanks, ohio

Love the Obama "Assyrian" reference, even if it is a tad bit outdated

I look forward to reading the other installments. I'll wait until you finish to comment in detail.

I hate women such as this wife, she threw away EVERYTHING for something that meant nothing... Really dumb bitch? I absolutely hate the "it meant nothing to me" bullshit. It meant your marriage, your family, the respect/love of your husband and kids... Fool. My problem with this wife so far is that she just doesn't seem to get it. She keeps saying he meant nothing... Noooooo, he meant a divorce dum dum. Yeah she's sorry, sorry she got caught, wasn't she getting ready for her date when he finally confronted her? Exactly! I don't know what her thought process was when she convinced herself she deserved a little fling.. That's exactly what she did, convince herself she can fuck some douche for a few weeks because their sex life was boring. can't wait to see what happens next. I need this braindead bitch to get a clue. I don't want to hear that it meant nothing & I didn't mean to hurt you bullshit. It was pissing me off. What did she think her husband was going to do if and when he found out? how could she not see this outcome playing out?

Arlene Dahl was a favorite teen fantasy. Pity it wasn’t reciprocal.

Wow, ohio is commenting ... lucky dog. It does look good. Gotta respect a person who can be cooly objective while in the throes of rage.

5*

We used to have authors on this site who could write about couples struggling to get past the wife's infidelity, but somewhere along the line they got crowded out by wife-sharers and revenge freaks. One request. Please try to avoid making the husband sound self-righteous. It makes me think of Charlton Heston.

I'm looking forward to the continuing saga of this family.

Although, with the title (if it's supposed to apply to the wife(Ellen)); that would be an impossibility - she has already demonstrated how conniving and backstabbing she can be. Cheating on not only her husband but, destroying the stable home of the children as well; it will never be the same again.

And, even though living through a similar situation as a child; I am still a hopeless romantic and like reconciliation. Although, in every case the adage once a cheater always a cheater ends up being the rule. Even with reconciliation there has to be a balancing of the scales and, the sword of Damocles will forever loom over the relationship & the betrayer. Once you break a person's trust you will never get it fully back; at the very minimal it will be trust but verify. Which really isn't trust; your second guessing & checking up on them constantly. Definitely a harmful, stressful way to live.

In any case; I'm just a reader along for the ride. I just wish there wouldn't be a possible week + between submissions; tend to loose track and end up having to reread chapters.

A real-life type story of cheating and reconciliation. The moving out is something most husbands would do for a while. Great beginning.

On what is really important to women's self-image.

I can't speak for the inner thoughts of all of them, so I'll just have to go with the sample I've got.

Lue

Keep writing

All of your characters talk, think, and act like Liberals, except for one. And I expect that one will be morphed into a Liberal as well as it suits your plot.

This is an observation, not a criticism. It takes a true professional writer to remove themselves from a story, then create characters that have their own plausible unique identity. It also takes a lot of time and care, which is why great writing can take so long to accomplish. I appreciate your effort.

It appears to me that you have already placed most of your characters in a box and on a tract that will be impossible to alter without cheapening the story, maybe even turning it into a cartoon. Fiction means that a story is untrue, not unreal. So when your characters act and speak in ways that defy and contradict previous behavior, or are contrary to normal human understanding, then your story devolves into a caricature of a story, empty and silly and contrived.

From my perspective we probably know everything we need to know about Ellen to understand her character, her intelligence, her values, and her virtue. Dan is still a bit obscure, but that is because you already are starting to morph his character to fit your plot, which makes him less interesting, even tedious and boring. Like, he knows who Ellen was fucking for some time, but he has yet to determine what form his retribution will take? Why? If it ends up being something simple and quick we will wonder why it took him so long to figure it out. If it is something complicated and sophisticated, then maybe that will make the story that much more intriguing. But so far Dan has not acted with much complexity or sophistication.

I have to admit I don't expect your story to be very realistic or plausible, but I hope I am wrong. In fact I look forward to being wrong.

I will wait to rate your story once it is a complete story. Thanks again for your time and effort. When the story is complete I hope I will be thanking you for your time and talent.

Keep it up. Write this your way!

Loved the start,keep going.

Don't be too long with the next chapter.

What does CHEATING have to do with self-image?

First of all, except for sociopaths, most people like to think that they are good people. How does knowing that you've cheated on your family good for your self image?

Second, it's not enough to look in the mirror and think, "I look hot!" Or your girlfriends ooh and ah over how good you look? Or other men come on to you? You have to actually FUCK them?!

Dan was surprised that Ellen's first comment was "How'd you find out?" That seemed, to me, to be just the kind of response someone -- male or female-- would give, trying quickly to process how things had gone wrong.

"I never meant to hurt you . . ." That, too, is probably typical; most cheaters don't want to give up their spouses, but were just having some excitement on the side. In this story, Ellen's affair came with an expiration date, when Rob would have to return to Texas. This part is also realistic.

Some commenters have complained that Dan was too cold, too emotionless as written. But Dan had time to get emotionless: he'd suspected the affair for "a while," and known for "a few days." That he didn't confront Ellen for the few days he had known for sure means that he had time to get cold and act emotionless. He'd spent some time checking up on who Rob was, enough time to find out where he lived and his wife's name. This is little different from some of the BTB stories where the cheated upon husband takes his time plotting his revenge. I fond this part realistic as well.

That he didn't want a clergyman as the marriage counselor: ministers and priests are in the forgiving business, and many spouses in this situation wouldn't want forgiveness pushed on them before they're ready for it, and some may never be. This was another realistic part.

The politics? Thirty-six words, words that really didn't add anything to the story, and pissed off about half of the readership, but so what? Right now, everything is polarized, with the Democrats absolutely hating the President, and Trump's supporters seeing the Democrats as little better than traitors. Nevertheless, for a college professor of anthropology, who "focuses on the role of language in culture," those are by far the more probable political leanings Dan would have. I don't know if the author just felt he/she needed to get a little bit of a dig in or what, but, while unnecessary to the story, readers should be thick-skinned enough to be able to let that slide.

Overall, one thing stands out: in a category which often requires suspension of disbelief, this story did not. I could see every bit of this story as happening in real life.

Despite the plethora of negative comments, the story has a 4.33 score right now; that tells me that most readers have liked it.

. . . that Rob was a Texas organizer for Trump? :)

A typical liberal, pseudo-intellectualized story. Story will surely end in reconciliation.The husband will apologize for his "fault".The professor asks his wife for forgiveness that he caused her betrayal and lies. Wimp and slut will live long and unlucky until the next betrayal.

RAAC - 1*

You said: "no literature that has dealt with political issues has ever stood the test of time."

"A Christmas Carol" is one that did just that. And "To Kill a Mockingbird" is another.

The trick of a good author is to address political issues in such a way that it doesn't detract from the story.

So many of these stories seem both average and simplistic. But this one stands out. Your turn of phrase is different, interesting and intelligent. The editing is of a much higher level than is usual here. You are holding my interest for future chapters to see where you are going. Love the literary and political incorporation.

Sure this story is well written and hardly any errors, but that being said, all I can do is ask why? Why bother to write a sad tale as this and post it on what is supposed to be an erotic literature site? People come her not only for good stories, but for that touch of naughtiness that comes from erotica. This story is sadly lacking.

This is my first comment evah. I lenjoyed the chapter and interested to see what happens. Talk about the moral high ground. This guy is on the top of the Alps.

No way in hell could I have reacted that way in real life or a story. Saving the marriage would have been low on my list at that moment. But the kids, that’s a tough

situation to be in. The pain and trust will be paying him a big visit to eat at his brain.

I think I would have said something like “don’t bother coming back tonight. I’ll tell the girls your moving out! I told your boyfriends wife about you guys. You should have a clear path to get married once we get the divorce red tape out of the way.”

But I can be an asshole.

But everyone is different. That’s why I love this category and the stories.

Lay some more on us Wendylicker.

Redo1984

@Reed Richards: I don't think you can blame the flat emotions on him having time to process things. *Both* of them come across as though they're play-acting, like they're trying to emote what they think they're *supposed* to feel, but they can't keep it up for more than brief stretches of time.

The day after he confronts her, he spends the evening with her watching a movie about a wife who cheats on her husband. It doesn't get him angry, he doesn't walk out halfway through, he just... watches the movie and then makes a wry comment with a chuckle. *Maybe* a non-robot could get to that point with a cheating spouse ten years later, but the next night?

Similarly, his wife was *three times* given the chance to confess, with the husband making it blatant that he knew what was going on, and her reaction was to continue to plan to go see her lover... and then minutes later, she's professing her love and that she wants to save their marriage. Really? Anyone with two brain cells to rub together and who honestly cared about the marriage would have at least stayed home and done damage control.

That's the moment where I think the marriage truly died. He was willing to try to get past things and give her one last chance if she came clean, and her reaction was to throw his offer in his face and basically tell him to go to hell while still planning to go out on her date. Now, when he's talking divorce, she wants a do-over?

That he's still moping around after this and talking about counseling makes me think we're going in a direction that going to lead to a lot of not-unwarranted "wimp cuck!" comments.

The basic problem here is that I don't honestly believe that he loves her and cares about the marriage, nor do I believe that she loves him and cares about the marriage. Their behavior is that of people who seem to think they *should* feel those things and consequently get outraged/apologetic about what's going on, but don't really.

This is a technically really well-written story about people that I do not recognize as human beings.

She cheated and he find that ..... " your mother had reasons for what she did"!!! Are you out of your mind? Or is that another cuckold/wimp crap??

He goes from 'You lied to me again, after I gave you a chance to come clean, we're done.' You know, like a man with balls. To 'Don't blame your mom for being a whore, it's my fault. Now, let's get some therapy, home work and coloring books to do together while we figure out how big of a pussy I am.'

BTW, you gave away the rest of the story when you did your left wing/liberal Trump bashing rant.

The comment was intended to be ironic, I even said it was in my comment. Clearly literature that addresses politics has stood the test of time. My snark was for those treating a few lines that helped define a character, as somehow equating that to the author writing "1984" or "Atlas Shrugged."

On another note, I enjoy your stories.

Definitely 5* chapter. A couple of comments. Why does the husband so often blame himself? For a man his age, his weight in relation to his height is not that bad and should not cause a long time wife any issue. Also, why is it the husband's sole responsibility to be creative in bed? I saw no hint that wife tried to introduce variety. I do think wife was not trying to hurt her husband nor necessarily disrespect him. She had a chance for a limited time of sex with someone she knew would be leaving and would not be a threat to her relationship with her husband. So she selfishly went for it. I am sure this happens often. I don't condone it. I'v been faithful my entire 38 years of marriage and the 3 years of dating before that, but I can see how someone could fall. My strong assumption is that less than half the cheaters get found out by their spouse. If a man or woman decides to have some "strange" periodically without a relationship building with their lover (sex provider) it is just too easy to get away with it and I have seen getting away with it happen more often than not during my life.

anon.1

I don't buy everyone's idea that he caught her off guard. If you are the one cheated on and your spouse hits you with it all of a sudden then yes you can be blind sided. If you are the cheater you are constantly thinking about what if I get caught. There has never been a case where the cheated on spouse doesn't find out.

A long time ago I thought I could have my cake and eat it too but the other was planting clues to do me in. There is no full proof plan.

There has never been a case where the cheated on spouse doesn’t find out? Never?

I’m guessing that you’re wrong about that.

Regarding your comment on the difference between Hubby’s comment to Sweetie and to his daughter. The difference is exactly that! The audience - and Hubby’s intent. Yeah, the comments seem almost diametrically opposed. But his message to his wife is “You killed (not ‘damaged’) the relationship between the two of us!”

Hubby’s message to his (very angry) daughter is “Your Mother has been my good wife for many years, and a great mother to you and Sis for your whole lives. You still need Mom a lot for your next few years, and also for the rest of your life. Figure out a way to help adjust the relationship between you!”

This is an excellent story, and now one of my favorites.

An EZ 5*

Looking fwd to continuation. Dont expect the writing to go as well going forward, you have done the easy part, the finish is always harder and what distinguishes the writer.

Written. I hope, somewhere in this story there is retribution for the asshole...the predator shouldn’t go Scott free!

Pro: well paced and well written. Partially credible plot and good dialogue.

Con: what HDK said about the politics is very true. I get enough political crap on Facebook and email and the media propaganda machines from both sides that I don't want to hear it here (unless it is something really clever and/or subtle like Lazlo Z or HDK). I took two stars off for your unnecessary political comment.

Con: the completely penetant and instantly broken wife is not credible. Women just don't react that way - even the good ones attack first when they are wrong -- PapaToad and JPB and sometimes HDK write women best and I refer you to them.

The first 5 paragraphs read like CV/Resume. There is too much exposition in the dialogue. Good fiction writing is a question of following the rule; Show not Tell. Good luck with chapter two.

Just because a spouse doesn't say they know doesn't mean they don't.

Hardly think you need an Editor....one of the best written stories I've seen on here in a long time. Looking forward to next chapter ...thank you.

But she didn't have any reason to cheat besides being a piece of shit.

He didn't cause it. Cheaters decide to cheat because they are pieces of shit.

They don't always start or end as hairy turds but they absolutely are at the point they are cheating.

This is too realistic a story for spanking an ass purple but the whore wife needs that at least and the asshole she fucked her family's lives up for deserves real pain as well.

Too much beer 🍺 tonight. I'm done.

Looking forward to chapter 2. I like the dignity shown by your characters, it makes this a very realistic tale.

This is a great morality for some site into morality tails. It's well written, has some good characterization and the guilty parties are being punished.

The erotic content in chapter one is *zero*.

JUST WOW, BRILLIANT, RACY, ENTERTAINING, A LOT OF ENERGY; BRILLIANT DIALOGUES, MATURED CHARACTERS; THIS IS GOING TO BE A SUPERHIT; AND PLEASE LET THIS BE RAAC AND NOT ONE OF THE STUPID BTBS.

Really good first chapter. Looking forward to seeing where you take. Please don't let Rob escape accountability for his part in this situation.

And not as weaponized clones of their father who exist only to confirm his sainthood and their mother as a cheating slut. She IS of course, but that doesnt change the fact that most of the jackass authors here only bring kids into the story to create emotional torture porn for the slut or as another party to be abused by the poor cheated hubby. Seriously, imbaffled at how many assholes demand their kids take sides, or firm bonds with them then abandon them when they find out it isn't theirs.

Who will be the first Author who will be the most brave Author to write a story with the next plot:

1. Cheater wife!

2. The husband catches her.

3. Emotioanal roller-coster.

4. Reconciliation for sake of the younger kids.

5. Life with the past in the marriage....

Untill this the readers think of this story plot RAAC or sometime rare not RAAC Reconciliation story (there are a few not RAAC Reconciliation stories.)

However the TWIST is the next:

6. The kids are older or above 18 years.

7. The husband leaves the ex??? cheater wife for a other woman with divorce.

I think this plot type is the rarest in LW. I think the authors are afraid from this story type!

Not a peep from WendyLicker in response to a fair storm of comments. (171 so far, but none by author.)

And still no information on his/her biog note.

I think that's unfortunate. Clearly many commenters have been impressed by this author's story. It would be nice to know a little of the influences on his/her writing.

Lue

You’ve asked for a longer than usual story, one that does happen in real life, but who here could make it a good one?

I can already tell: if I tried it, once the kids had hit 22 — thinking after college, not just child support — I’d wind up with the couple staying together, not divorcing, with the husband realizing that he still had the best wife for him.

Perhaps sbrooks could manage it.

You're right!

The problem with writing a story that ends in reconciliation, is that no matter how high a time the hubby has, no matter how much the wife suffers, even if the divorce before the reconciliation, the trolls will blast it as RAAC.

Despite being derided as a member of the "Moral Brigade," I actually have no problem with a GOOD reconciliation story. The issue is what constitutes a "good reconciliation" story!

We all have our own ideas, and obviously for the trolls, there is no such thing, so we have to disregard them.

These are my requirements. Your results may differ!

First, how bad is the offense? Was it a one time, maybe drunken, slip? That certainly helps! Was it an "in your face, I'm gonna do it whether you like it or not?" Reconciliation highly unlikely.

Second, how contrite is she? Does she think that he should "get over his fragile male ego?" Unlikely.

Third, just what cost does she pay? Does she rape HIM in the divorce, maybe alienate any kids from him? Don't expect him to reconcile in this lifetime? Has he somehow gotten away with most of the assets, and her friends and family shun her? Maybe, though you have to wonder then if her contrition is really for what she did or for what she has suffered!

Wow! This one little chapter is the Energizer Bunny of Loving Wives! A stoic husband lectures his wife for three pages and it’s still #1 on the comments ranking three days later! Thank you, mystery author, for breathing some life into this category!

Re. the “bravest author” challenge, I’d happily accept that challenge. But then, we now all know how the story ends, so what’s the point! What is “brave” about writing any story?

I would offer a different sort of challenge of LW writers, and it has nothing to do with “bravery,” but simply creativity. Write a standard, by-the-numbers, BTB tale where the wife isn’t a brainless moron and the husband is flawed in some way and displays some sort of emotion. Write a “cuck” tale where the wife’s new lover isn’t as good in bed as her husband. Write a “RAAC” tale where the wife isn’t required to flail herself for all eternity to atone for what she did, and where two mature adults find common ground and put the past behind them so that they can live a happy life together.

Too many readers in this category seem to want to read the same damn story over and over and over again. They want their stories to follow a certain template, and get very upset when there is any deviation in that template.

Be original! This notion that “there are only so many ways to write a LW tale, and they’ve all been done to death” is complete bullshit. No two stories of mine are alike. I’m halfway finished with my next LW story, and I’ve never read any other story like it. It can be done!

Written well... let's hope that the sequiels will reach the same quality levle.

While the husband's character is well defined, wife's is still an enigma. First she denies, then when the husban spills the goods, she suddenly relents, calls the lover and breaks off the affair. Reason "he knows....". While husband is proactive, she is reactive. Waiting to see how it develops...

i liked it, but u better hurry with the other chapters.these comments are starting to entertain me more than ur story did, almost not quite tho but almost

you apparently arent allowed to poke at politics

Comrade Trump is doing a fine job, for the Russians

Unfortunately, most of Joe's scenarios are logical impossibilities!

"Write a standard, by-the-numbers, BTB tale where the wife isn’t a brainless moron and the husband is flawed in some way and displays some sort of emotion." - Doable, I guess, though if she wasn't a "brainless moron" she wouldn't be doing the things that put her into a BTB situation!

"Write a “cuck” tale where the wife’s new lover isn’t as good in bed as her husband." - Why would a woman cuck her husband for a lesser lover? Just to humiliate him? That makes her ripe for a BTB!

"Write a “RAAC” tale where the wife isn’t required to flail herself for all eternity to atone for what she did, and where two mature adults find common ground and put the past behind them so that they can live a happy life together." - The first sentence makes no sense. The whole IDEA of RAAC is that she isn't required to flail herself at ALL, never mind "for all eternity!" With all due respect, a mature adult doesn't cheat, he/she discusses any problem with the relationship with his/her partner!

Joe and logic aren't good bedfellows, as evidenced by his rampant hypocrisy and claims that he's original and creative. Pointing out the plethora of holes in his so-called "challenges" won't do any good, for he is a legend on his own mind and anyone who says otherwise is either personally attacked or ignored because they haven't written any stories and thus their opinion doesn't count(even if said "opinion" is, in reality, objective fact).

Joe and SB reside on different planets. Their minds work in totally different ways.

Joe comes from a standpoint that accepts people having a range of models they call a marriage and that's OK. When others say that a non-traditional model won't work, Joe defends it.

SB comes from a different standpoint.

I see no problem with the questions Joe poses about LW stories and what he calls 'challenges' to write something beyond the templates. He has a definite bee in his bonnet about the sameness of so many LW stories and he frequently says so.

I think it's most unfortunate when Joe's comments are worded in a hostile manner. It alienates others rather than engaging them. (He's not alone in that, SS.) It leads to others dismissing his reasoned ideas without thought rather than giving them the consideration they deserve.

On the other hand, Joe is one of the most encouraging commenters to new authors with interesting first submissions. I missed him when he withdrew from the commentaries some time back.

Lue

Are you implying that an intelligent woman would never cheat on her husband? I'm sure you don't believe that every cheating woman is a brain-dead idiot. Once she is caught, then show us an outraged husband who burns the bitch in white-hot anger rather than dispassionate ambivalence (as almost every BTB story portrays.) That's all I'm suggesting. Is that too much to ask?

Re. the hotwife and her less-than-adequate "bull" scenario, that actually happened in one of my favorite LW stories ever. The husband encouraged his wife to pick up a stranger in a bar, she brought him back to her hotel room, the "stud" couldn't perform up to standards, so the hubby stepped in and got the job done! I wrote a story myself where this happened (but with the gender roles reversed.)

Finally, re. your RAAC comments, if a person doesn't cheat, how can there be a reconciliation? How about a RAAC where the wronged spouse is the wife? Or a RAAC where the cheating spouse has a valid reason (from his/her standpoint) to cheat, and BOTH partners must admit their mistakes in order for the reconciliation to occur? Why must every RAAC be about a cheating wife who grovels and begs at her husband's feet (sometimes literally) until he allows her one more chance? There must be some fresh spin on that tired old formula, no?

Aside from that, who on earth wants to read a story about two mature adults who discuss their relationship problems before any cheating takes place? Zzzzzzzzz!

The problem with your "logical inconsistencies" theory is that it has absolutely nothing to do with logic and everything to do with a lack of imagination!

I don't think it has to do with a lack of imagination. There are plenty of stories in this genre that have intelligent women who don't grovel when they're caught. DanielQSteele is one of the most prolific writers in the LW genre, and his women are all classified as "bitches". GirlontheMoon was ridiculed when she published her story "The Guy Next Door" because her heroine was caught apologetically between two men. A few other authors have penned stories of intelligent women who don't grovel.

The problem is, these stories are unpopular. People who read stories in the genre don't want to read about that. Their tastes lie in a different format. But there is a reason for those tastes.

In my opinion, these stories serve as the same sort of entertainment as action movies. We like our heroes to stand tall in the face of danger, especially when normal men would fold. We want our heroes to be who we wish we were, or want to believe we could be. How disappointing would it have been if Bruce Willis begged for his life instead of giving the famous "Yippie Kaye, mother fucker" line? If John Snow ran from the whitewalkers instead of charging stupidly into an army of the undead, would we hold him to such esteem? Rocky keeps getting up to get his ass beat when every other mortal on the planet would have said, "You know what? This guy is bigger, faster, and stronger than me. Even Apollo died fighting this monster. I'm going home."

People in this genre want their wronged husbands to be that guy. He has to exhibit all the characteristics of who we hope we would be when our world is falling apart around us. The readers don't want to read about a guy that's human. They want a hero. In order for this guy to be the way he has to be, his villain can't equal or overshadow him. She has to also not be human, except she has to be on the other side of the spectrum from the hero.

No one should be knocked for what they enjoy. There are plenty of stories for them in this genre, and they should feel free to read them.

I have found that there is also an audience in this genre for the "human" stories. You are in that audience, Joe. I enjoy reading and trying to write those types of stories also. However, I think that calling the other types of stories unimaginative is just as disingenuous as when they comment on "human" stories with "RAAC shit" comments.

Let's all be free to enjoy what we enjoy.

On another note, I like THIS story and want to see where it goes. Nice job, author.

That is one of the best explanations for the BTB genre that I've ever read. But I think you miss a very, very, important element of the examples you listed. We are fully-invested in the characters of not only the heroes, but the villains. The heroes are flawed enough that we can relate to them as human beings, and the villains act in an evil manner for some reason that seems plausible. This helps us relate to these characters and care about what happens to them as their stories unfold.

Rocky is a hero, but he's also a bum. He's a street thug. A nobody. That's why we pull for him when he's given a chance to win the title. Apollo, Clubber, and Drago were all "bad guys" (in the sense that they stood in Rocky's path), but we had enough information about their backgrounds to understand why they behaved the way they did.

Jon Snow is a hero, but he's also a lowly bastard. He's a brother of the Night's Watch who broke his vows by sleeping with a wildling girl. When he stands alone against the entire army of Ramsey Bolton, we know exactly why Ramsey has assembled his army. We know why Ramsey is so evil in the first place, and we know every evil act he committed, which is why it is SO incredibly delicious when he finally gets what's coming to him.

(I purposely didn't mention your Die Hard reference, because that's such an over-the-top 80's cartoon that it doesn't really apply to this conversation! Oh, and also, it is NOT a Christmas movie!)

Contrast all of this with the typical characters in the BTB genre. The heroes are almost never flawed in any way. They don't behave in a way that most of us can relate to. If my wife cheated on me, I'd be heartbroken and furious -- not calm and calculated like the husband in this story. I wouldn't have connections to the CIA, super-sleuth powers, or expert-level hand-to-hand combat skills.

The BTB "villain" often gets no background whatsoever, so we can't relate to why she acts the way she does, or what, exactly, she did to become a villain. In this story, we don't know anything about the wife except that she cheated. The story begins after the revelation of cheating has occurred!

It's entirely possible to write an exciting and compelling BTB story where the hero is flawed and relatable, and the villain is plausibly evil. Unfortunately, those stories are in the vast minority (IMHO.)

(By the way, thanks to the author for allowing this sidebar to continue. Discussing the craft of writing is why I come here!)

Re: non-brainless BTB: You brought up BTB, then decided to expand the discussion to ALL cheating wives (a common tactic of yours, BTW!). Yes, not all cheating wives are brainless, but MOST cheating wives subjected to BTB at least ACT brainless! Case in point, RG's "The Bridge," which wasn't actually BTB by the way! The wife in question certainly wasn't brainless, but she had to have taken leave of her senses to treat her husband the way she did. It's been a long while since I read DQS, but if my memory isn't failing me, (a definite possibility!) his stories were rarely BTB. Again, many disagree on just what is a BTB. I've seen stories where the husband simply divorced his wife with a 50-50 split, and the story was called BTB in many comments.

Re: Cuck - I'm sorry, that example you gave ISN'T cuck, at least as most here would define it.

Joe, either you are doing your usual schtick, or you're making the mistake that less experienced readers make re: RAAC and Reconciliation.

The whole point of RAAC is the "At Any Cost" piece. The wife DOESN'T "grovel and beg!" In a RAAC, the cheating wife (OR husband!), is welcomed back into the spouse's loving arms while doing nothing to earn/deserve the reconciliation. Of COURSE there is cheating in ANY reconciliation, RAAC or not. My point about "mature adults" was in response to your challenge to have a RAAC with mature adults discussing things in a rational manner, and my point was if they were that kind of couple the cheating wouldn't have happened! They would have TALKED about those "valid reasons" you mentioned; and you're RIGHT it WOULD be a boring story! But you can't have it both ways! They can't be not mature enough to discuss the problems BEFORE cheating, then suddenly blossom into mature adults.

Your ID doesn't accept feedback.

Could you please send me a address where I can contact you?

Thanks!

Some one spoke of DQS. Please don't drag this or any other story out like he does. It took like 2.3 years to get the last book of WWWM out to us to read and he is no were near the end.

Very impressed. Great story that gets to the real nub of broken trust and betrayal and the realisation of what really matters in a relationship. Can’t wait for the rest of the story.

GREAT STUFF VERY ENJOYABLE,LOOK FORWARD TO READING MORE CHAPTERS,UNFORTUNATELY YOUR NEVER GOING TO SATISFY ALL COMMENTERS SOME JUST AINT HAPPY UNLESS YOU BTB RATHER THAN HAVING A REALISTIC APPROACH OR ALTERNATIVELY HAVING ELEPHANTINE COCKS ENTERING THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY...JUST5*****.

why no repercussions for male involved-at least inform his wife

First she knew she was caught when he told her not to go out or the marriage was over and if she didn’t realize it than she is just plain dumb because they supposedly loved each in a great marriage. Two she calls the guy and based on that conversation in front of hubby showed that they spoke about there marriages and the asked if she’s ok . What was he going to be her knight and come save her. Third she only want to save her marriage because now she’s caught other wise she could care less about her hubby and family. This dick was away from his family and found the perfect cheating pig to fuck eveywhich way possible. Fourth she says she doesn’t want people to know which is a lie she gets caught on right there because he calls her on the friend knowing and her sister and the other girl who she was supposedly going out with would also have to know Incase he started asking them questions. Lastly of what I’m remembering is after their daughter revealed the text and what it said would’ve been the cherry on top knowing she read that . He’s way to calm and to me it’s obvious that they will stay married but I hope I’m wrong. It may be childish but the guys wife would definitely have all and any I’ve had on the affair. He would have to suffer just as bad as I was . I’m way to jealous and stubborn to stay married to her and counciling would just piss me off more with all the details and excuses coming out . He’s already taking blame that he never should because there is no excuse. What he put weight on or they only had the same old sex. Well she should’ve got creative if she felt like cheating. Her husband would’ve enjoyed it and it would only trigger more new sex but instead she chose another cheating scumbag and of course it’s exciting different and new. I’m sure her husband would’ve enjoyed a younger tighter bigger tits and tight pussy for a couple of months. Every time she lied or snuck around to fuck homage took away from her kids and hubby and there is no one in the world who could come up with a excuse that is acceptable. The guy texted her are you getting away from hubby and kids because he wants more of her sweet pussy and her teen daughter had to read that. Some examples she set for her girls. I would’ve called off going to counseling right there, no chance after that

Fill it in. For description in stories is one thing but blanks on profile says a lot.

As much as people love to insert their politics, it's always a bad idea, especially in a story told from the first person perspective. It's viewed as the author's politics (which, frankly, it probably is) and then it colors the perception of the entire story.

Did Dan deserve it? Well, given his likely pretentious and intentionally ignorant nature? Yes, he did. So does Ellen. And of course, neither do. That's the stupidity of even asking.

The story reads like so many other "I accept responsibility because I'm a progressive man." stories and that's a tired road. Of course, so is the 'burn that whore!' road. You write what you want.

But by inserting politics, you alienate a significant number of your readers for no reason; the cracks about the president and his party and helping the .01%, while they could apply to any president and their party, will seem to apply (and perhaps appropriately) to the current president, but they don't serve the story in any way, other than to make half your readers dislike Dan. Next time I recommend leaving them out unless they're 1) particularly necessary for that story or 2) particularly necessary to that character, neither of which is true in this story. Just cut out the excess of unnecessary crap. It doesn't make the character feel fleshed out; in fact it made this character feel like he lost a dimension.

But for a first effort in LW you're doing very well. The plot and dialogue is very good. A great start!

I do agree with the recent comment about leaving politics out of your story. Really doesn't add to the plot line and polarizes your readers. If I was editing that's probably the first thing I would comment on. And then the change in the feel of the initial confrontation dialogue to something not quite as serious as what came before and after. Didn't really fit.

And almost 200 comments (no, I didn't read them) in a coupla days! Some of the established writers don't get a tenth of that attention!

Great start. I’m a conservative curmudgeon, nothing in the story is out of line politically, imho. People finding political everywhere is tiresome.

Don't say this is your last chance thing and don't follow up with it. That already sets an annoying tone for the story. Now everyone knows this is will be RAAC, so like someone else already mentioned you will have an uphill battle in the comments for this story. Make the reconciliation worthy and I'm sure this is will be a great series. This already looks like a pretty good story so far.

The socialist overtones are unneeded. Sure this is a story about a screwed up Democrat couple, but you need not bring in the politics - unless you are just looking for another method of turning readers against you. Remember, half of the people who read this voted for good "ol' orange hair" over the proven liar and cheat hippocrit that your party pushed to the front of the stage over the communist underdog (who should have won the primary - if it wasn't fixed).

Besides, you have plenty of opportunities to provoke the readership in the unrealistic way you "raise their children" (in the story, not that you could actually do any parenting with all your socialist committees and such; Besides, doesn't the community raise the children? so why bring them into the story at all?).

just more BS, surprised she doesn't get an abortion to add the political soapbox for that lagerhead.

"If you say so... but I do love you."

I'd only leave the part where he says he loves her in because HE does...

Just shows the state of our so called higher education institution and the garbage they are filling our young people heads with. Stick to your story. Forget the rest of it

Not a bad start good character build up. You’ve got a good pace going. A couple of typos but not bad keep it going. Thank you for sharing

The author used a situation where the husband was totally despondent with his wife's cheating and was reading the morning paper;

"We didn't talk anymore after that. When the coffee was ready, I took a cup into my office (what had been the spare bedroom) and drank it, reading the morning's news. Not much was really new; the president was still an unhinged assclown, and his party was still blithely providing political cover for his indiscretions, while figuring out ever more astonishing ways to further enrich the .01%."

Whats wrong with that situation in real life? We have a president working on his third divorce and he has willingly admitted to his cheating life style on television so whats political about that - it's just him? Sorry I just can't resist the Trumpets defense of that scumbag.

I KNOW I'm going to regret this, but I can't let some of your comments go unanswered.

"There is no doubt that a wife or husband who secretly commits adultery in the clear expectation that his or her spouse will be hurt by the infidelity has done wrong." - Is there any way for a husband or wife to secretly commit adultery and NOT have a clear expectation that the spouse will be hurt? Any HALFWAY sane person KNOWS that their spouse will be hurt by the infidelity!

"Joe comes from a standpoint that accepts people having a range of models they call a marriage and that's OK." - Actually, I DON'T have a different standpoint! I have no issue with couples who choose TOGETHER to have some form of alternative relationship. My issue is with one party, and in the LW world it is usually the wife, deciding for themselves that they are going to alter the model. I happen to believe this is cheating and is wrong, and you and Joe consistently try to defend it as "just another model."

And the bystanders may regret it even more.

I don't disagree with what you say in your comment. The problem with this type of discussion is that we speak in absolutes where the situations are much much more complex and nuanced.

I am probably more extreme than Joe in my starting point. Freedom to me means not having to ask permission to do something. As well as that, I always prefer to know the reasons why somebody took a course of action before making a judgement about that action. Even when I consider an action to be wrong, I believe there's a better chance of corrective action if we understand the reasons.

On the other hand, I don't like seeing people hurt and I understand that what one person may see as OK another may see as betrayal. 'Cheating' is defined through the eyes of the cheated upon.

Should a wife ask a husband's permission before she talks with another man? If she wants to have lunch with him? What about if he's an ex-boyfriend? What about if she wants to go to bed with him? Is there a line below which it's not cheating and above which it is? Could there be reasons which make each one OK sometimes but not others?

Rightly or wrongly, I see you as making moral decisions regardless of the reasons. You come across to me in your comments as having a black and white view of morality where I see no black, no white, only a wide range of colours.

Lue

I would hope that it's obvious that simply talking with another man is okay, as long as it's JUST talking, not planning a rendezvous!

I don't see any problems with lunch, again, as long as it's JUST lunch, not a prelude to something else.

As to a boyfriend, I still see no particular problem, though I would expect hubby to be told about it. There ARE other factors to consider. Is this an ex who broke up with her, that she has maybe carrying a torch for? Is it an ex that SHE dumped, who is maybe trying to get her back? Once again, is it JUST lunch or something more?

I simply can't see a grey area with cheating. By it's very name, it's wrong. Can a teacher ever accept a student cheating on an exam? IF there is a "good" reason to have sex outside the marriage, then there should be no reason to hide the sex, i.e. cheat! So, yes, even if a wife (or husband) has a "good" reason for their cheating, I still see it as wrong. To repeat myself, a spouse should be able to say, because you have done "X," I feel that I have a right to have sex outside our marriage. If they feel that they can't do that, then they need to find another way to deal with their issue.

To use a common LW situation, the wife who "needs" more sex than her husband can provide. Now, she can be honest and explain that to her husband, and get his permission to take lovers, and not cheat. Probably not likely. She can encourage her husband to use more oral sex, fingers and toys to give her multiple orgasms prior to intercourse. She can masturbate and use toys on herself.

If all else fails, and she MUST have more intercourse than her husband can provide, she can go back to option one. If hubby agrees, great! If not, then she asks for a divorce! He asks why. Well, you won't let me have lovers, and I won't cheat on you, so we must part.

To cheat is the classic "have her cake and eat it too." She wants the comfort and security of a marriage without making the fidelity commitment that a marriage requires.

Your "freedom" to not ask permission to fuck whomever you want was lost when you said your wedding vows. Note, if you and your spouse have different vows, then all bets are off, but again, in that situation it's NOT cheating!

A very promising first chapter from a debuting author who writes rather well.

Does Ellen deserve a second chance? Personally, I would say no. The husband gave her chance after chance to come clean, she threw it back in his face, and when she was found out, the first thing out her mouth was ‘how did you find out?’ The thing is, the trust is gone. Even as a reader, I cannot tell whether Ellen is genuinely repentant, or just trying to ride out the storm.

Realistically, they would divorce. But then of course, there are the young daughters to consider.

Eagerly anticipating Chapter II.

People are free to like what they want - FFS, some people voted 5* and even favorited illiterate nonsense by Huecuck2 and others like him; however, it doesn't mean it is any good.

As for politics, it is no surprise that many of those same voters also voted for the orange shitgibbon, and are now crying about the political opinions of this protagonist.